I am really tired of this aggressive neo-feminism and I can't support generalizations like this one.
I have never seen situations you have described here in my 20 years of work and whenever I was in situation to help women colleagues - I have. Moreover, we stayed great friends even after we all changed jobs.
So, instead of painting all of us (white) men in this manner - try to think of it like this: if someone is misbehaving, it is not because of his gender or even skin color. It is simply because that person is a jerk.
As a point of interest I think its fair to talk about NeoFeminism. Its definition:
Neofeminism describes an emerging view of women as becoming empowered through the celebration of attributes perceived to be conventionally feminine, that is, it glorifies a womanly essence over claims to equality with men.
Vladimir, I think we may be talking about two different things. Creating a fair and equitable terrain in the workplace should be gender neutral and based on performance in all areas. When I get home I'm a Neofeminist!
I'm a very straightforward data science student in last year before master graduation. I like to learn bottom-up step by step and go through the logical discovery process myself as much as possible
We are tired of those rants and words like "man-terrupting" are advocating against you. Movements like #MeToo give incentives to managers or devs in this community and others to not mentor women (if you are a man). The only relevant point you mentionned is that women are deemed aggressive yet they should feel empowered about it as, as far as I know, aggressiveness is one of the traits most correlated with career success. As I stated earlier you cannot have it both ways. You cannot one one side paint mens with a broad brush as sexual harassers and one the other expect exprienced seniors to mentor women when they are fully informed of the risks. Now if you are really advocating for equality (of treatment) in the workplace maybe the startung point should be to find the reasons why it happens. Blaming on men is all easy and stuff but it won't fix anything. I can't force anyone to be productive but what I am sure of is this: You want a change? Blame men for your problems and be sure you will not get any good results. Someone saying "all men work with each other" should expect an answer like "women don't belong in the workplace" and I am convinced the correlation between the decrease of mentoring of women and the results of the diverse destructive feminist moves is nonzero
Hi Isaac,
You make a good point! And that is exactly what this is about. If aggressiveness is correlated with career success - I haven't seen it. I have been censored for speaking out strongly about issues which later on were incorporated into projects I was working on; but that's a conversation for another time. It wasn't my intention to paint anyone as a sexual harasser. Are you referring to something specific you have experienced?
In regards to blaming: You hit the nail on the head! That is exactly the solution we are seeking! You are right in that projecting the issue as "men are the problem" is definitely not productive. The solution starts with women helping other women and then reaching out to men as mentors and colleagues. Opening a dialogue about mentoring across the isle (sort to speak) is one step amongst many steps we all need to take.
I'm a very straightforward data science student in last year before master graduation. I like to learn bottom-up step by step and go through the logical discovery process myself as much as possible
Its a shame you have experienced such behaviors. My point is that as I understand it you were to a conference and want to share what you learnt. Well you might think that what they told is pure truth and statistically backed, fair enough, but as I quoted earlier we are only a couple months away from the #MeToo and a raise in hostility to men in the workplace. You see where I am going, I think the reason I am hostile to your article is that I don't see anything solid in it, like a deep analysis and a fact checking of what happens together with a perspective. If you present an issue I think everyone needs something stronger than anecdotal (which does not diminish your experience in anyway but does not give a transversal soluion either).
I quote you: "Movements like #MeToo give incentives to managers or devs in this community and others to not mentor women (if you are a man)."
WHAT - THE - FUCK. Are you serious? Movements like #metoo gives us consciousness to know what the hell are they suffering and motivate us to help, and even take the mentoring you mentioned more serious. Stop looking at your belly, it is not the center.
I am sure that it does happen since not everyone is the same, but generalizations like you have mentioned will not help anyone. They will only divide us further.
How would you react if you found out that women behave similar to male colleagues? Scheming and gossiping behind their backs until they get fired, just because they don't like them?
Well, it also happens, but I am not lecturing entire female kind for the despicable acts of few bad apples.
Sorry, I have replied through e-mail link and was brought straight to reply section.
Justifying generalizations is never good. One must really try to see both sides of the problem before giving into lectures like the one above. It is a problem that the world is going in that direction - too many passionate opinions, but not enough wisdom behind them.
Vladimir,
Thank you for your honest comments. I think we all agree that bad behaviors at work hurt us all (men and women alike). Its so good to hear that your experience at work has been that women are being supported in their professional endeavors! My experience as a woman at work over the last 25 years (more than a decade as a software engineer) has been different. It is my hope and prayer that we all experience the same good fortune as you one day. Namaste!
I am really tired of this aggressive neo-feminism and I can't support generalizations like this one.
I have never seen situations you have described here in my 20 years of work and whenever I was in situation to help women colleagues - I have. Moreover, we stayed great friends even after we all changed jobs.
So, instead of painting all of us (white) men in this manner - try to think of it like this: if someone is misbehaving, it is not because of his gender or even skin color. It is simply because that person is a jerk.
As a point of interest I think its fair to talk about NeoFeminism. Its definition:
Neofeminism describes an emerging view of women as becoming empowered through the celebration of attributes perceived to be conventionally feminine, that is, it glorifies a womanly essence over claims to equality with men.
Vladimir, I think we may be talking about two different things. Creating a fair and equitable terrain in the workplace should be gender neutral and based on performance in all areas. When I get home I'm a Neofeminist!
We are tired of those rants and words like "man-terrupting" are advocating against you. Movements like #MeToo give incentives to managers or devs in this community and others to not mentor women (if you are a man). The only relevant point you mentionned is that women are deemed aggressive yet they should feel empowered about it as, as far as I know, aggressiveness is one of the traits most correlated with career success. As I stated earlier you cannot have it both ways. You cannot one one side paint mens with a broad brush as sexual harassers and one the other expect exprienced seniors to mentor women when they are fully informed of the risks. Now if you are really advocating for equality (of treatment) in the workplace maybe the startung point should be to find the reasons why it happens. Blaming on men is all easy and stuff but it won't fix anything. I can't force anyone to be productive but what I am sure of is this: You want a change? Blame men for your problems and be sure you will not get any good results. Someone saying "all men work with each other" should expect an answer like "women don't belong in the workplace" and I am convinced the correlation between the decrease of mentoring of women and the results of the diverse destructive feminist moves is nonzero
Hi Isaac,
You make a good point! And that is exactly what this is about. If aggressiveness is correlated with career success - I haven't seen it. I have been censored for speaking out strongly about issues which later on were incorporated into projects I was working on; but that's a conversation for another time. It wasn't my intention to paint anyone as a sexual harasser. Are you referring to something specific you have experienced?
In regards to blaming: You hit the nail on the head! That is exactly the solution we are seeking! You are right in that projecting the issue as "men are the problem" is definitely not productive. The solution starts with women helping other women and then reaching out to men as mentors and colleagues. Opening a dialogue about mentoring across the isle (sort to speak) is one step amongst many steps we all need to take.
Thank you for your honest comments! Namaste!
Its a shame you have experienced such behaviors. My point is that as I understand it you were to a conference and want to share what you learnt. Well you might think that what they told is pure truth and statistically backed, fair enough, but as I quoted earlier we are only a couple months away from the #MeToo and a raise in hostility to men in the workplace. You see where I am going, I think the reason I am hostile to your article is that I don't see anything solid in it, like a deep analysis and a fact checking of what happens together with a perspective. If you present an issue I think everyone needs something stronger than anecdotal (which does not diminish your experience in anyway but does not give a transversal soluion either).
I quote you: "Movements like #MeToo give incentives to managers or devs in this community and others to not mentor women (if you are a man)."
WHAT - THE - FUCK. Are you serious? Movements like #metoo gives us consciousness to know what the hell are they suffering and motivate us to help, and even take the mentoring you mentioned more serious. Stop looking at your belly, it is not the center.
You are soooo wrong.
How so?
Just because you "haven't seen it", doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I am sure that it does happen since not everyone is the same, but generalizations like you have mentioned will not help anyone. They will only divide us further.
How would you react if you found out that women behave similar to male colleagues? Scheming and gossiping behind their backs until they get fired, just because they don't like them?
Well, it also happens, but I am not lecturing entire female kind for the despicable acts of few bad apples.
If you had taken the time to look, you'd realize I didn't write this post.
Sorry, I have replied through e-mail link and was brought straight to reply section.
Justifying generalizations is never good. One must really try to see both sides of the problem before giving into lectures like the one above. It is a problem that the world is going in that direction - too many passionate opinions, but not enough wisdom behind them.
Vladimir,
Thank you for your honest comments. I think we all agree that bad behaviors at work hurt us all (men and women alike). Its so good to hear that your experience at work has been that women are being supported in their professional endeavors! My experience as a woman at work over the last 25 years (more than a decade as a software engineer) has been different. It is my hope and prayer that we all experience the same good fortune as you one day. Namaste!
Moriah,
Thank you for your supportive comment.
Namaste!