It's odd to me that so many people are using "Stack Overflow isn't for beginners" as the rallying cry here. Of course it's for beginners. Most of the questions on the site are about things that a subject matter expert wouldn't need to ask. I usually visit Stack Overflow for beginner stuff, like if I forgot how to copy an array or what the difference between varchar and nvarchar is.
I agree that one or two of the recent criticisms of SO could have been made with more professionalism. But this isn't one of those cases. As Jeff himself admits:
May I suggest, as respectfully as possible, that since you appear to possess the same Magic Triangle of privilege that I do (white, male, lives in a first-world country), maybe it isn't your place (or mine) to decide if women and people of color are being excluded on Stack Overflow? And maybe there's more nuance to the situation than overt racism or sexism, such that even a veneer of anonymity doesn't protect them? It's important to believe people when they say they've been excluded or hurt, and there's a critical mass of people who say that about their experiences at Stack Overflow.
No one is saying that SO isn't a valuable resource. Of course it is. Thousands of excellent people have used SO to share their knowledge, and their contributions have value. But as a site that is so central to software development and the tech community, it's fair to expect them to show a certain amount of social responsibility, which up to this point has been found lacking.
We had survey participation at almost the rate we would expect from our traffic, although such a low percentage points to problems with inclusion in the tech industry in general and Stack Overflow in particular. -Stack Overflow, Developer Survey Results 2018
In any case, I value your contributions here and I hope you don't leave.
May I suggest, as respectfully as possible, that since you appear to possess the same Magic Triangle of privilege that I do (white, male, lives in a first-world country), maybe it isn't your place (or mine) to decide if women and people of color are being excluded on Stack Overflow
I don't think the color of my skin makes my opinion any more or less valid than anyone else, nor am I bound by your ideological constraints.
You seem to imply that everyone should be reduced down to a single mindset and set of experiences based on their skin color and gender, and that the opinions of each should be ranked accordingly.
The whole concept falls apart the moment someone in your non-privileged group differs from you ideologically, at which point you almost certainly abandon this idea entirely. I'm being a bit presumptuous here, but I'd venture to bet you value the opinion of Joe Biden more than you do Clarence Thomas.
Hmm, not really a fair summary of what I was saying. The very moment Joe Biden tries to tell me what it's like to be a black person, I'll tune out. That's my point. If someone who's different than you is talking about their own experiences, there's no room for you and I to say "that didn't happen."
I have seen minorities express opinions about the tech industry that are summarily dismissed because they don’t fit the desired narrative. Here is one opinion on racism in general, from the aforementioned Clarence Thomas.
Please stop pushing this idea that there is only one acceptable opinion for a group of people to have, that just so happens to align with your ideology, and that I need to shut up and listen to it.
I agree with you. It's really sad to see people accuse Jeff of being some kind of monster.
FWIW, I'm black and living in Africa. I'm a pretty regular user of SO (Googler, asker, answerer). I've never felt discriminated against or excluded. Never have I seen colour or race come up in a discussion on an SO question. People using the survey results to claim "exclusion" conveniently forget that "white males 18-34" are also a leading demographic in software developers worldwide. (For instance, see VisionMobile's survey.
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It's odd to me that so many people are using "Stack Overflow isn't for beginners" as the rallying cry here. Of course it's for beginners. Most of the questions on the site are about things that a subject matter expert wouldn't need to ask. I usually visit Stack Overflow for beginner stuff, like if I forgot how to copy an array or what the difference between
varcharandnvarcharis.I agree that one or two of the recent criticisms of SO could have been made with more professionalism. But this isn't one of those cases. As Jeff himself admits:
May I suggest, as respectfully as possible, that since you appear to possess the same Magic Triangle of privilege that I do (white, male, lives in a first-world country), maybe it isn't your place (or mine) to decide if women and people of color are being excluded on Stack Overflow? And maybe there's more nuance to the situation than overt racism or sexism, such that even a veneer of anonymity doesn't protect them? It's important to believe people when they say they've been excluded or hurt, and there's a critical mass of people who say that about their experiences at Stack Overflow.
No one is saying that SO isn't a valuable resource. Of course it is. Thousands of excellent people have used SO to share their knowledge, and their contributions have value. But as a site that is so central to software development and the tech community, it's fair to expect them to show a certain amount of social responsibility, which up to this point has been found lacking.
In any case, I value your contributions here and I hope you don't leave.
I don't think the color of my skin makes my opinion any more or less valid than anyone else, nor am I bound by your ideological constraints.
You seem to imply that everyone should be reduced down to a single mindset and set of experiences based on their skin color and gender, and that the opinions of each should be ranked accordingly.
The whole concept falls apart the moment someone in your non-privileged group differs from you ideologically, at which point you almost certainly abandon this idea entirely. I'm being a bit presumptuous here, but I'd venture to bet you value the opinion of Joe Biden more than you do Clarence Thomas.
Hmm, not really a fair summary of what I was saying. The very moment Joe Biden tries to tell me what it's like to be a black person, I'll tune out. That's my point. If someone who's different than you is talking about their own experiences, there's no room for you and I to say "that didn't happen."
I have seen minorities express opinions about the tech industry that are summarily dismissed because they don’t fit the desired narrative. Here is one opinion on racism in general, from the aforementioned Clarence Thomas.
Please stop pushing this idea that there is only one acceptable opinion for a group of people to have, that just so happens to align with your ideology, and that I need to shut up and listen to it.
I agree with you. It's really sad to see people accuse Jeff of being some kind of monster.
FWIW, I'm black and living in Africa. I'm a pretty regular user of SO (Googler, asker, answerer). I've never felt discriminated against or excluded. Never have I seen colour or race come up in a discussion on an SO question. People using the survey results to claim "exclusion" conveniently forget that "white males 18-34" are also a leading demographic in software developers worldwide. (For instance, see VisionMobile's survey.