I don't get it. Nobody's stopping you from firing up an HTML doc in Notepad and FTPing the result to a web server, if that's all you need. But other people have more complex needs (in the "good ole days" there were no smart phones, to mention just one thing) and therefore we need more complex tools. Why do you want to force me to party like it's 1999?
Bingo, the complexity today is a must, at least because of the growing smartphone usage. The simple reason why "Native Apps didn't kill the web even with all their superior capabilities" (Ryan) is simply UX. As internet usage often starts with searching for something having in mind, that all-app-thinking interrupts exactly this flow, leaving at least 30% of all traffic untouched. For what? For 5-minutes-crafts skyrocketing their YouTube traffic? Although not everything needs server side complexity plus having API's and webhooks easily integrated using browser capabilities not existing in the god old days, the architecture underneath is not the real issue.
You are getting it wrong. The aim is not "to fight complexity". The aim is to fulfil complex needs. I am saying for that you often need more complex tools.
What percentage of modern web is a "complex needs" target that requires a complex solution such as React or Vue or perhaps something custom written in WASM? 50% 25%? 5% 1%?
My issue isn't with applications are too complex really. I develop complex applications too at work.
My issue is with all the moving parts with a modern web application. Fighting if I can use certain language features. Oh I can't, now I have to bother with setting up and making sure I can use Babel or something to do it properly, or even loading in polyfills (cool just added another dependency the browser has to load before the application can be used).
That still hasn't covered bundling everything. What's the correct way bundle this? Well crap I now have to go and correctly configure WebPack. Unless you're one of the VERY FEW experts on that ,that will take time to figure out to get right. Ok so I think it bundles right, well now how should I lazy load this code for the user? What should be lazy loaded? What should i use to set it up?
That's just the beginning. I could go on and on about the other complex moving parts with a modern web application.
I am not asking anyone to make applications like it is 1999. All I'm asking for is a more modern and simpler process that is a STANDARD.
Maybe it is because I come from compiled language background. Where I have to worry about that one single binary. I only have to worry if the compiler supports the language version I'm using. Where I can just pass in a single flag to the compiler for the optimization level I want.
Yes I will be the first to say that in some areas of modern web application development we have taken steps forward. I just wonder if we have taken steps back in some areas to take those steps forward.
All I'm asking for is a more modern and simpler process that is a STANDARD ...
Maybe it is because I come from compiled language background ...
Well I am sorry, but web development is a complete different kettle of fish. We download all the parts that make up an application asynchronously, on a wide variety of devices, with different specs and rendering capabilities - all things which the app, once downloaded, need to adapt to. We have progressive rendering and respond to all sort of sensors. All while ensuring boot up time for the app is in the microseconds range and security for both you who download the code and the server.
Your expectations are simply unrealistic, sorry.
Also, we always had polyfills, even "back in the day". Except that back then everyone had to bake their own. In fact, we had browser wars and appalling browser (IE5 for the Mac, anyone??!?) and it was a real pain in the neck.
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I don't get it. Nobody's stopping you from firing up an HTML doc in Notepad and FTPing the result to a web server, if that's all you need. But other people have more complex needs (in the "good ole days" there were no smart phones, to mention just one thing) and therefore we need more complex tools. Why do you want to force me to party like it's 1999?
Bingo, the complexity today is a must, at least because of the growing smartphone usage. The simple reason why "Native Apps didn't kill the web even with all their superior capabilities" (Ryan) is simply UX. As internet usage often starts with searching for something having in mind, that all-app-thinking interrupts exactly this flow, leaving at least 30% of all traffic untouched. For what? For 5-minutes-crafts skyrocketing their YouTube traffic? Although not everything needs server side complexity plus having API's and webhooks easily integrated using browser capabilities not existing in the god old days, the architecture underneath is not the real issue.
re: sessions --> I keep tabs open for months at a time, not sure about anyone else
You fight complexity with ... more complexity?
You are getting it wrong. The aim is not "to fight complexity". The aim is to fulfil complex needs. I am saying for that you often need more complex tools.
What percentage of modern web is a "complex needs" target that requires a complex solution such as React or Vue or perhaps something custom written in WASM? 50% 25%? 5% 1%?
All of it. Unless you have actual data that proves otherwise...
uh what? the web is about content and media. not a software environment.
My issue isn't with applications are too complex really. I develop complex applications too at work.
My issue is with all the moving parts with a modern web application. Fighting if I can use certain language features. Oh I can't, now I have to bother with setting up and making sure I can use Babel or something to do it properly, or even loading in polyfills (cool just added another dependency the browser has to load before the application can be used).
That still hasn't covered bundling everything. What's the correct way bundle this? Well crap I now have to go and correctly configure WebPack. Unless you're one of the VERY FEW experts on that ,that will take time to figure out to get right. Ok so I think it bundles right, well now how should I lazy load this code for the user? What should be lazy loaded? What should i use to set it up?
That's just the beginning. I could go on and on about the other complex moving parts with a modern web application.
I am not asking anyone to make applications like it is 1999. All I'm asking for is a more modern and simpler process that is a STANDARD.
Maybe it is because I come from compiled language background. Where I have to worry about that one single binary. I only have to worry if the compiler supports the language version I'm using. Where I can just pass in a single flag to the compiler for the optimization level I want.
Yes I will be the first to say that in some areas of modern web application development we have taken steps forward. I just wonder if we have taken steps back in some areas to take those steps forward.
Well I am sorry, but web development is a complete different kettle of fish. We download all the parts that make up an application asynchronously, on a wide variety of devices, with different specs and rendering capabilities - all things which the app, once downloaded, need to adapt to. We have progressive rendering and respond to all sort of sensors. All while ensuring boot up time for the app is in the microseconds range and security for both you who download the code and the server.
Your expectations are simply unrealistic, sorry.
Also, we always had polyfills, even "back in the day". Except that back then everyone had to bake their own. In fact, we had browser wars and appalling browser (IE5 for the Mac, anyone??!?) and it was a real pain in the neck.