Hey guys!
I'm Ethan, I'm one of 10 Peregrine developers. This post is gonna be about some updates we've added into Peregrine lately.
Abo...
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can you also support
x:intsince you haveint xthoughxcan be inferred. That way all that I'd need to convert python to swallow is main method. 🙏Ok 👍👍
I came here to say this. With python already supporting a syntax for types there isn't much point rolling your own.
Nim language project seems to be very similar to your goals.
Have you looked into that project? Wouldn't Nim's metaprogramming engine be able to reproduce the planned features in your project?
Yes I know about nim but there are some diffrences like this project tries to replecate the good things of python and C but nim even if inspired by python does not try to replecate python
The difference between Nim and Python syntax-wise is approximately same as difference between the given examples of Swallow compared to Python. Yes, variable and procedure declaration is slightly different, but type signature syntax in Nim is more similar to Python's compared to Swallow.
The main question here is why is there a need for new programming language, when a very similar, more mature project exists? It would be more fruitful to improve an already existing project and that would bring greater good to programmers looking for Python like C language.
But of course, if the project's main motivation is learning about language design, parsing, compiling and just for fun, then it makes more sense. Since developing and launching a new language is a very challenging and risky task that will take years of maintenance and improvements, and even then it most likely will not get the traction between programmers to stay alive.
I have heard of Nim but to be honest I have not tried it. Seeing swallow, I think it is much more like C. It is as if I am writing C but sugar coated with python. I am writing C using python syntax (This sounds better). That is how I see it. I don't know much about language design, parsing, compiling or the rest but I have used python and JavaScript more as a back-end developer. So looking at Swallow (python-coated-C), it would stay alive, maybe in a small niche but it will still stay alive if it will revolve around python - for that I can say. I stand to be corrected.
Nim also compiles to C, so it's same as Swallow in that manner. Besides Nim is already released language where as Swallow isn't past v1 yet.
Also Nim can compile to JS too.
We have other languages because of this
We didnt ask you to take risk. We are taking
Obviously the project doesn't affect me in any way.
I simply believe that greater things can be achieved when great minds work on common goal.
Good luck with the project!
Let them do whatever they want with the project. Let's wait and see whether the outcome and improvements of the project benefits us over time. By the way, the fact is, in most cases especially in our technology domain, great minds (even if they have common goals) don't work together. If it happened, we would have not got different programming languages, operating systems and so on. The goals might change over time. It's better we let them do whatever they want as long as the outcome of their work is going to benefit everyone in the niche. And, although Nim and swallow seem to have common goals for now, we don't know what other goals the swallow team has in its list. They might come up with some additions and improvements over time.
Why doing a todo app in react since there's so much todo app... I'm pretty sure the main idea behind Swallow/Peregrine is to do something they want to, they are passionate about and they will be proud.
It's normal to talk about want you're proud of, maybe it is the same thing than Nim, but if you dont make a programming language, you'll never know how to make one... and if it's what they want to learn, this is a great way to do it!
Is this programming language have a futur? Only the futur will tell you
Are the programmers behind that have a futur? Clearly, they are passionate, will learn a lot, want to give to the community, 10/10 they have a future.
And if a beginner want to contribute to this project, it could be easier to him since it's in an early phase and could be easier to understand.
This is not a company looking to take over part of a market, this are individuals looking to learn and share.
So go! Follow your passion and your goal!
The second reply in this thread already expressed the same idea:
looks very interesting
did you develop a GC or how are you handling memory?
For memory management, our plan is to use auto-free where the compiler will insert free calls wherever necessary
I know it is going to be difficult
I think this will be the biggest sticking point for many devs. The statement from your readme:
It will have no garbage collector because it is a system programming language but it will be very easy to use so there will be less chance of a memory leak
That seems to be a pretty bold assertion; there's a reason why the most popular programming languages today all use a garbage collector. Even using a garbage collector, I've come across many leaky applications in my career. Proving that your compiler can understand when a free call is "necessary" will be a big lift for you.
That said, I'm rooting for the cause here, and curious to see how it pans out...
Just the programming language that python programmers needed for competitive programming. Can you please ensure if swallow is supported by online judge
I dont think that they will disqualify swallow but please note that this language is still not complete
Hi there, nice work I really like what your doing.
Just a question is in my mind, why u guys don't work on julia programming language?
It's easy, fast and with a powerful support.
And oh it's already created so u don't have to work from zero right?😅
Both of them have diffrent goals
Given the idea that Python is cross-platform - in the idea where you use Python libs for your own code, how does this compare? I know Python and other languages as well use libraries written in C or Rust or such, then just make interface for such calls which again makes code unusable on some platforms where those dependencies weren't "ported". So I assume you would still have to compile this for each platform you want to run on? The only difference being that now you could write everything in one language and use source includes then recompile everything together where Python libs written for a specific platform "cannot" do this because they pre-compiled for single platform. It's really niche experience and not many libs are like that but still I'm wondering
Well the library that run on a single platform in python will run on a single platform on swallow as well
I was wondering more about cross-compile issues with the same language, not using Python lib in Swallow. As text clearly points out is that you may now be able to avoid Python libraries written in other languages for speed and then having interface to Python and instead simply have libraries fully written in same language as the code you're writing yourself. Point being you can write Python application and move it's code anyplace without thinking about platform unless you depend on such libraries. If swallow will have to be compiled each time for platform then it looses that perspective. Note that not all Python apps are written to use AI stuff or something depending on heavy calculations so they don't care about this and enjoy "write once move anywhere" to some extent. Again not saying it's preventable in all cases but if you completely loose that part of the Python then you loose specific group of devs.
Ethan please change the name if you only know that naming is important.
Please change it Rubik I love ruby since Ruby is dynamic if you add it the letter K will signify as for statice type language
Like Ruby(dynamic typed) Rubik or Rubyk(static typed).
We are discussing name changing right now
Since the comparison, I would have call it Cobra XD.
But yeah you need a name and file extension that are marketable.
Because swallow is not marketable like , Shawshank redemption the movie, everyone agrees the movie is one of the best movies of all time, but the name killed the movie.
Quick question Gui and swallow using python libs like tkinter etc... Will this come around with the planed feature of python ecosystem? If so I can see my self adopting this for a project I am working on at the moment😎
That's the plan
How is trans compiling to see C, going to be different from what Python is doing? Unless I'm mistaken this is what CPython is doing, it's just doing it in real time, aka interpreting. And we can force Python, to compile instead of interpret already. Am I missing something here?
You're not missing anything, just a lot of hype over something new and shiny (with nice branding and graphics on the GitHub page)
Awesome project! 🙌
thanks!
.. Python could resolve the performance issue with @lru_cache for the memorization to improve the example of Fibonacci. It is matter of memory consumption. That would be great if you can show both the performance and memory consumption comparison between Python and Swallow for this example to show case how good the Swallow language is. Otherwise I doubt Swallow is using more memory.
Well using @lru_cache will be cheating. If you run a multithreaded python program and a simgle threaded c program then it is very likely that python will win
Amazing project ! Don’t loose your time and energy with the haters and keep up the good work ;)
I’ll definitely keep an eye on this repo
Thanks for the support!
Hey guys, i never post comments in this site but I logged in just to add to the argument: if you guys have the intention of the language being widely adopted once it matures, please, greatly consider a name change. Here in the United States, the word swallow has a very strong sexual connotation and I'm absolutely sure that people will be embarrassed to say they code in Swallow. I'm surprised someone else in the comments said that the word also has a bad meaning in their language (not English).
Again, i wish you success, but I guarantee you the language will not pick up in the United States just because developers will not be throwing that word around.
OK, I'll discuss this.
Cython
Swallow and cython are diffrent with diffrent goals. Swallow will have many more features
How does Cython transpilation to c differ from Peregrinne?
Pointers, constant etc etc. Also we are not making yet another python to c converted
Cool, and let's say I'd want to use it for developing games, can I "link"/integrate a c lib like glfw and compile to webassembly?
Yes you can
Why not just contribute to julia which is very similar but much more mature?
What would be Swallow's edge over julia?
Well swallow is a systems programming language and it's goal is diffrent from julia
If Swallow is similar to VLang, it seems great to me, this one is inspired by Go and does not have a production version yet but for what it is doing so far it seems great to me. In this case, if swallow is inspired by Python, it also seems great to me, a language that is compiled, without GC, with auto-free and has the advantages that Python has, would be magnificent. It seems absurd to me to try to compare them at this time when it is just being born.
Hmm interesting
I was not aware Python was significantly slower than C in production. Usually people use Cypthon in production right
What makes Python faster or slower in a production environment vs. a language like C isn't the choice of the interpretter per say (CPython vs PyPy), but the efficiency of certain design patterns or usage of highly optimized libraries in your production code. For example, if you're able to vectorize many of your operations (using numpy or pandas, for example), your code can perform much faster regardless of your interpretter selection.
Interpreted will be slower than compiled in general because there’s more layers of execution between the code and CPU at runtime. Holding constant the design patterns and workload, Cython can equal C at runtime efficiency. Unlike CPython, Cython is a superset of Python (and C) which gets compiled with a standard C/C++ compiler. If a Python solution needs to be put into production with minimal effort, it’s often easier to compile it with Cython than rewrite it in a systems language.
A native solution is better
This site is so amazing, This sites gives good knowledge of python , This is very helpful for me.Here all content so useful and helpful for beginner.
The powerful programming language that is also easy to learn, Python has fewer keywords and more free English language syntax whereas C is more difficult to write. Hence, if you want an easy development process go for Python. Speed-wise C is a better option. spell to make people break up
Hi guys! Very interesting idea. I use Python to develop scientific applications. Pythonis great bcoz of the scientific modules but it's a pain to develop applications with it. Particularly, i
I'd love to see:
1) No GIL. There are plenty of solutions for multiprocessing pools for data analytics, but Python is excruciatingly painful when creating concurrent threads that require intercommunication, which is the core of any application. I'd love to be able to create threads easily without having to spawn a whole new process. Also, that it us possible to have memory-shated spaces without the annoyance of using ctypes, which is not native. In reality, I feel thst the true problem here more than the GIL is dynamic typing, but I'm not an expert.
2) Portability of scientific libraries. I know you have it in the pipeline, but thus is the real advantage of python to me.
3) runtime enviornmemt to deploy applications, which is totally lacking.
I know I might be in a very small niche, but I feel there is a need there for building applications that require scientific-level data processing. I know that the standard solution to this problem is:
1) write the app in java/C#/C++ n embed compiled c code from python/Matlab scripts for the data processing bits. But that works well only if the data processing is contained. Otherwise, it's a lot of interface. For a big company, they can afford to have a deducated team for translation, but startups, those that usr python the most, cannot.
2) use scijava or other numerical packages. But those suck.
Python is great because it allows to go from analytics to production, except that production sucks.
Best Regards and Best of luck!
This just makes me wish someone would make a Python compiler to do just this but as a drop in replacement instead of a similar syntax separate language
The issue with speed is memory management, also the fact that python is interpreted. Once compiled, it runs faster, but still it will be slower due to GC and other memory features.
C is blasing because it demands the programmer to know computer science.
It isnt a language for newbies or people that had studied only by YouTube videos or online courses. It's a language for those that understand how a computer works.
But that comes with a price. It's much more prone to errors and hard to learn.
Having said that, I praised these guys for their boldness into trying to develop such a language, but I guess it will be hard or even impossible to come up with a solution without a GC to self memory management...
Well, take a look at objective-C. It might help
This looks awesome, if after the planned update it's able to work with flask and/or Django, I'll try building a project with it to see how it goes.
Will it also support data science libraries too?
100% but the basic language is still not complete
I am looking for to it...
Wonderful project! Can't wait to see updates
thanks!
This seems like a really awesome project! Looking forward to trying it out.
Ccode x++; Ccodedoes it have to be on one line? Or is it a block. If it is a block, can it be imported (I will put whatever C code into a c file and then import/include it where I need it)?You can put whatever you want inside it ;)
I really think that keeping the syntax similar to python is better. It will be an easy shift from the language
A python like language where you can seamlessly integrate assembly and c!? That's incredible I'm looking forward to trying this out!
Thanks:)
very cool
If you going to create a package maneger name it as (Hatcher) it will suitable for peregrine
Cool name
Hey cool Project, but why are you using the V?
We are using V because it is fast, easy to use and works in the same way as swallow works
There is a comment on this post that recommend to change the name, I am not a native English speaker, on my lang, that doesn't sound good, I am agree with that comment. Now, I guess to know what's the philosophy of your lang? I mean, what is the lang targeting to?
I am not able to find an extension of this language on vs code, is there any?
Also, will it be compatible with packages say numpy, tensorflow, flask etc?
Awesome effort btw
not yet
Have you seen Scala 3?
Does swallow going to support OOPS?
From what I see, you are being inspired by VLang or it is part of Swallow.
Is it swallow or peregrine the name of lang ? great work btw, I m pretty amazed by the time and or performance ratio for pretty much the same syntax.
Peregrine. We renamed the language because people were suggesting it. Sorry for any confusion, and thanks for your support!
This could be a python 4.x.x!
Python is used in many fields such as Machine Learning, web development, etc
What would be the main target of swallow language.
You might want to fix the typo for the inline assembly example... :-D
Where is it?
The language is wrote in V, perhaps you can make a transpiler for V along with C, then you have fast compile time as well.
Can peregrine able to use java,python,C++ native library?
you mean ffi?
Yes
Yes you can
Statically typed C? Lmao
C already has a static type system
We renamed the language to peregrine because people were suggesting it. Thanks guys!
I just liked the language, that's why I am looking name for it, please call it Rubik is I deal name for it.