Cover image alt: Header reading this blog post's title on a blank piece of paper sitting atop a desk with writing pens and ink.
Originally posted ...
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How a man can respond:
In Canada, offering apologies and correcting behaviour even if you think you have done nothing wrong is not seen as a weakness.
The point is that women aren't* (this previously said "are", which was a typo) treated with the same respect as men. Women are conditioned to behave differently than men. When we behave in the same ways as men in the professional world, we’re considered “bitchy”, “bossy”, or “intimidating” rather than “assertive”, “decisive”, or “intelligent”. Men have a lot of privilege in that they can behave almost however they want to without issue. It’s not the same story for women.
Why did you ask a question you seemingly already know they answer to? I'm not interested in defending my lived experience. Please go.
I dont want to be rude, and u had a few points, but that comment makes me thing the person who wrote it is aggressive regardless of wheater it is or isnt a women... I dont think its true men can get away with that attitude, and unless you come with irl exaples it looks very hypocrite (ps: I hate typing on my phone so ignore the mistakes)
Matei, who are you replying to?
I think I can lend some sanity here, after reading the thread.
@franticcoder87 , the issue many of the others in the thread are having with this is that, often, when someone in a group experiencing discrimination points out that what is being done to the group is wrong, it is a common counter-point for someone, especially someone from the privileged group, to remind everyone "You should be nice to my group too!"
It's not okay, for two reasons:
1) It implies that
<underprivileged group>is wanting inequality.2) It shifts the focus back onto you and
<privileged group>.Of course everyone should be treated with respect, but this isn't about men and how they're treated. It's about women, and the crap they have to deal with regularly.
The author, and the majority of women in tech, are wanting equality. But that doesn't exist; women often don't get the respect that many men demand for themselves.
As to the content of the article, it is entirely justified. Read about the Paradox of Tolerance
I understand if you did not realize the impact of your words. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it can be very difficult to put oneself in the shoes of another. You may well not have intended harm.
However, whether you meant to or not, you echoed a common "shutdown" statement frequently used against women and other underprivileged groups. The author and other people in the thread are not out of line to be angry. It is impossible to know your intent, especially when your actions are similar to those of many who intend harm.
In the future, when you find you've done this, accept the correction, apologize, and then stop responding to the thread. The more you try to defend yourself, the more you add fuel to the fire you started. Accidentally starting a fire can be easily forgiven; deliberately pouring gasoline on it is not so easily overlooked.
I hope this helps you understand the issue here, and that we can move on.
Thank you
This is a good explanation for why the initial comment would/is a trigger.
I don't see a correction being made. I see the start of a discussion, then it was killed because an opinion existed.
I think it's very sad that this instigative comment is your first comment on this platform.
@Ashlee You mentioned that similar behavior across gender receives different labels (bitchy vs assertive). Why have you chosen to label this as 'instigative' instead of 'thought provoking' , 'contributing to a discussion' , or 'challenging my beliefs'?
I don't think women should try to be like men (he did it first is not a good moral compass), however it is important to emphasize standing up for yourself (which goes both ways), men shouldn't feel as though they can't inquire about things just because a woman has spoken from experience.
I had a previous conversation which was challenging to articulate in such a manner that wouldn't kill discussion. Your approach to responding was exactly my concern.
As I write this I don't have expectations of continued dialog, not because you are a women but because of the tactics I see you use to close down a conversation.
I don't think I understand how the articles out there wouldn't represent you.
Humans have a mantality to congregate into groups and generally that come with similarities.
psychologytoday.com/us/blog/close-...
"The less information we have about a person, the more actual similarity affects liking"
Now I wouldn't argue not to write, but don't you think it is interesting how we use race, sex, and appearances to establish similarity before we are aware of any actual similarity.
See:
I think I can lend some sanity here, after reading the thread.
@franticcoder87 , the issue many of the others in the thread are having with this is that, often, when someone in a group experiencing discrimination points out that what is being done to the group is wrong, it is a common counter-point for someone, especially someone from the privileged group, to remind everyone "You should be nice to my group too!"
It's not okay, for two reasons:
1) It implies that
<underprivileged group>is wanting inequality.2) It shifts the focus back onto you and
<privileged group>.Of course everyone should be treated with respect, but this isn't about men and how they're treated. It's about women, and the crap they have to deal with regularly.
The author, and the majority of women in tech, are wanting equality. But that doesn't exist; women often don't get the respect that many men demand for themselves.
As to the content of the article, it is entirely justified. Read about the Paradox of Tolerance
I understand if you did not realize the impact of your words. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it can be very difficult to put oneself in the shoes of another. You may well not have intended harm.
However, whether you meant to or not, you echoed a common "shutdown" statement frequently used against women and other underprivileged groups. The author and other people in the thread are not out of line to be angry. It is impossible to know your intent, especially when your actions are similar to those of many who intend harm.
In the future, when you find you've done this, accept the correction, apologize, and then stop responding to the thread. The more you try to defend yourself, the more you add fuel to the fire you started. Accidentally starting a fire can be easily forgiven; deliberately pouring gasoline on it is not so easily overlooked.
I hope this helps you understand the issue here, and that we can move on.
franticCoder, a piece of advice: when a woman speaks about her experience, and especially if it's an experience that has to do with men, the best thing to do is to shut up and listen.
Men and women are NOT treated the same. We can do a first step towards a more equal society by showing respect and listening. It's an easy first step :)
Bravo! I concur.
Over the past two days, I've dealt with two bright-blazing sexists who insisted that their discriminatory and degrading speech somehow "wasn't" sexist. I used several of these phrases, especially including #10. (Not quite the same, since I'm not a woman, but yes, they work.)
When one of the twits complained I wasn't "being inclusive" of his views, a moderator friend of mine was kind enough to bring up the Paradox of Tolerance to the dweeb in question, and then explain that discriminatory attitudes are not eligible for "tolerance" or "inclusivity".
Wow! Yes indeed ladies be assertive. You are inferior to no-one! Thank you so much for posting this and brightening up my day ❤️ When a man tries to interrupt me I tend to carry on talking and put my hand in a 'stop' gesture ✋ Works every time because they never see it coming!
Indeed excellent list. Fortunately for me, I was NOT trained to soften my language. And men around me know that. We as women can and should have ambition, defend our view and debate and assert our right to voice our point of view.
See: dev.to/ashleemboyer/comment/ig6e
This is great Ashlee!
"Like I said it was "never my intention" to attack you therefore any "impact" that you seem to have felt is irrelevant."
Imagine someone trying to hit a baseball, accidentally lets go of the bat & breaks your nose. I guess that because their intent wasn't to hurt you... your pain & broken nose is irrelevant. Please.
This right here. Gah. 🙄
My wife and I had a good discussion on why this comment is problematic.
Women have had a history where it was socially and expected behavior to mistreat women. In order to establish an equality of treatment women need to go beyond replicating the way they were/are treated. Allowing to establish the proper middle ground.
Let me explain this at a higher level view. If society has women who behave in the way they feel they and others are treated, it provides a means for society to reflect on how that behavior has been accepted in other situations and discuss.
This does not make that woman a good person, but it can be an important person to the larger progress of society.
What does this have to do with your comment being a problem? Nothing.
Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think the real question being asked is, "why is your advice only being directed to women and not everyone who is not feeling like they are being heard whether the be male, female, or null"
If I translated this well, aside from not directly asking this, it misses the social pressures which are placed on women (including within some families). These people may not be of the opinion that they aren't being heard or that there is anything wrong with the treatment they received (freedom exposed a lot of injustices in older society). However these people would classify themselves as women/girls. (I think I've answered my question of a previous article.)
Stop replying to me. You claim you're not being instigative, but you're jumping in threads that have nothing to do with you just to disagree with me.
I luv that! Thanks Ashlee.
I'm a woman. Don't call me "man".
Thank you Ashlee ♥️
Awsome
Hell yes.
Your comment is literally indented under mine. You're still arguing. 😂