If you consider this as a game with an end result, you can quickly learn that it can be in your favor to say a number first.
You usually come to the table with a number in mind that you call your "ideal income" (let's call this X).
Two mistakes already:
The company might be willing to pay you way more. Your true ideal result is not a number, but a half-open range: [X, infinite[
If the company tries to negotiate on this number, you'll feel compromised/defensive.
To skip the whole silly "game of negotiation" and win, just don't play.
Not giving in, standing your ground, and explaining yourself, will show the company you know how it works and you can work out of the box.
Option 1: If they're being dicks about forcing you to give a number, tell them €1 million a month. Explain that they are asking for a number, and you can give any number, but that's absurd because they're asking you to either guess their budget or undervalue yourself. Because even if you offer the perfect number, many won't feel satisfied about the process without having haggled down at least a little.
Option 2, when they're not dicks: Explain that you did some research on market rates but that these vary wildly depending on a lot of variables (e.g. industry, company size, company growth & funding, expected responsibilities, client base), and that you'd like to know their budget so you can accommodate for it.
Imagine they don't want to budge and absolutely need you to give a number. If this happens and you want out, give them a number between [X+30%, 2X] depending on how much you like them/the job. Either way, even if they try to negotiate, you'll be above what your ideal income was and you walk away happy while they maintain some dignity in being able to have their "negotiation". If you were way off, they now have to tell you their budget or waste everyone's time. Just try not to smile too much while they "negotiate".
Finally, the true end option: walk away.
If a company isn't willing to respect your boundaries in an interview, they won't respect them when you're an employee. The choice is always yours, the company needs you at least as much as you need them, and you will only ever feel fulfilled if you make decisions with meaning and intent - not depending on the €€€ you get at the end.
Ryan is an engineer in the Sacramento Area with a focus in Python, Ruby, and Rust. Bash/Python Exercism mentor. Coding, physics, calculus, music, woodworking. Looking for work!
I see what you’re saying, but what if you tell them 2X and they would have offered you 3X because they really need you? Wouldn’t it still have been better to let them make an offer? I’ll agree with you that, if you must say a number first, then it’s not always the end of the world and your strategies are good ones. It’s good to do research, know your worth, and go in with goals. But I still don’t think I see any situation where it behooves you to say a number first... especially for salary negotiation. As far as respect and intentionality, though, you are totally right. How they treat you during negotiation is a big indicator of how they’ll treat you as an employee. If they try to squeeze every last penny out of you and don’t respect your needs/wants, that may be a warning sign.
but what if you tell them 2X and they would have offered you 3X because they really need you
Change jobs frequently, when it makes sense, and after properly preparing your current employer (help them hire a replacement and inform them on time).
If you're getting 2x what your perceived optimal is, you're already winning. By moving horizontally, you can keep challenging the market for what your highest optimal is. You'll find that you'll quickly settle for less than 100% maximum when you find a team you enjoy working with.
If you go in one conversation looking to get 100% of the maximum they'd be willing to pay you, even if it's way above your 2x optimal, then there's something to be said about your own greed.
Ryan is an engineer in the Sacramento Area with a focus in Python, Ruby, and Rust. Bash/Python Exercism mentor. Coding, physics, calculus, music, woodworking. Looking for work!
Hm. I don’t know that I agree that greed factors in at all. You make a good point that often a good team or good environment is worth a little less pay. And changing jobs is a good option for optimizing your situation. But, I’m not taking about beating them up or expecting 2-3X. All I’m saying is that you are potentially leaving money they are willing to pay you on the table. And that seems foolish if avoidable and if you can do it without being rude/uncooperative.
All I’m saying is that you are potentially leaving money they are willing to pay you on the table. And that seems foolish if avoidable and if you can do it without being rude/uncooperative.
If they have the same attitude about squeezing you to the lowest you could possibly go, without being directly rude/uncooperative, we're unhappy.
The same goes for their point of view.
It's not because you can, that you should. Empathy and meeting in the middle is also value.
In the case where they wouldn't mind giving you that extra money in any way (e.g. they wouldn't even have noticed), there is still value in knowing that you can prepare, ask your worth and walk away happy without being a slave to needing to get the maximum.
A perfectionist is in a prison of their own making. Being able to adjust to any situation will get you further.
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If you consider this as a game with an end result, you can quickly learn that it can be in your favor to say a number first.
You usually come to the table with a number in mind that you call your "ideal income" (let's call this X).
Two mistakes already:
[X, infinite[To skip the whole silly "game of negotiation" and win, just don't play.
Not giving in, standing your ground, and explaining yourself, will show the company you know how it works and you can work out of the box.
[X+30%, 2X]depending on how much you like them/the job. Either way, even if they try to negotiate, you'll be above what your ideal income was and you walk away happy while they maintain some dignity in being able to have their "negotiation". If you were way off, they now have to tell you their budget or waste everyone's time. Just try not to smile too much while they "negotiate".Finally, the true end option: walk away.
If a company isn't willing to respect your boundaries in an interview, they won't respect them when you're an employee. The choice is always yours, the company needs you at least as much as you need them, and you will only ever feel fulfilled if you make decisions with meaning and intent - not depending on the €€€ you get at the end.
I see what you’re saying, but what if you tell them 2X and they would have offered you 3X because they really need you? Wouldn’t it still have been better to let them make an offer? I’ll agree with you that, if you must say a number first, then it’s not always the end of the world and your strategies are good ones. It’s good to do research, know your worth, and go in with goals. But I still don’t think I see any situation where it behooves you to say a number first... especially for salary negotiation. As far as respect and intentionality, though, you are totally right. How they treat you during negotiation is a big indicator of how they’ll treat you as an employee. If they try to squeeze every last penny out of you and don’t respect your needs/wants, that may be a warning sign.
Change jobs frequently, when it makes sense, and after properly preparing your current employer (help them hire a replacement and inform them on time).
If you're getting 2x what your perceived optimal is, you're already winning. By moving horizontally, you can keep challenging the market for what your highest optimal is. You'll find that you'll quickly settle for less than 100% maximum when you find a team you enjoy working with.
If you go in one conversation looking to get 100% of the maximum they'd be willing to pay you, even if it's way above your 2x optimal, then there's something to be said about your own greed.
Hm. I don’t know that I agree that greed factors in at all. You make a good point that often a good team or good environment is worth a little less pay. And changing jobs is a good option for optimizing your situation. But, I’m not taking about beating them up or expecting 2-3X. All I’m saying is that you are potentially leaving money they are willing to pay you on the table. And that seems foolish if avoidable and if you can do it without being rude/uncooperative.
If they have the same attitude about squeezing you to the lowest you could possibly go, without being directly rude/uncooperative, we're unhappy.
The same goes for their point of view.
It's not because you can, that you should. Empathy and meeting in the middle is also value.
In the case where they wouldn't mind giving you that extra money in any way (e.g. they wouldn't even have noticed), there is still value in knowing that you can prepare, ask your worth and walk away happy without being a slave to needing to get the maximum.
A perfectionist is in a prison of their own making. Being able to adjust to any situation will get you further.