re: ICE, Github, Tech & Politics VIEW POST

FULL DISCUSSION
 

I think rhetoric like this is very dangerous. This... uproar... of company policies, and who uses their services, etc is a very slippery slope. Where does it end? Cancel culture is a poison in our civilization. There are many more productive ways to help with the ICE issue, and it's not by 'canceling' GitHub or quitting a job ( sometimes thats on if the company is directly involved in evil acts). This is a very reactive way to what? Get off a platform that millions of users depend on because you have a difference in ideology?

Why is it that there is only this type of outrage for this main issue. I don't see developers getting up in arms because modern-day slaves, basically, are the ones cutting the sugarcane for their Redbull and coffee. I don't see developers getting all bent out of shape that bottled water companies are making billions of dollars at the cost of the American taxpayer and selling it at a premium to third world countries that live on less than a dollar a day ( the bottles still cost 3 dollars over there as well ).

No one is perfect. Everyone has differences of opinion. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. Getting GitHub to change their mind... maybe. doubtful, but maybe.

I've seen a lot of developers, with their paychecks, and their new MacBook Pros, and their iPhone 11 Pros beat their chest talking about civil rights, and human rights, and that's all they do. Bang keys on a keyboard.

I feel for the people at the border, I really do. There should be some serious overhauling of that system to better care for people because it's not how we treat our middle class and up that defines us, its how we treat the poor, and the sick.
That being said, These people did commit a crime. And they continue to commit the same crime, every day. Being in a country, to which they have not gone through the proper process to get in to.

Your protest on GitHub isn't going to do anything to help them.
Some Ideas...
Get involved with an action group. Go to the border. Volunteer. Maybe, help write software that can help these people. Call your congress-person/senator. Run for office.

Take a proactive approach, and stop yelling into a dark closet.

I would love to hear your proactive ideas on how we can help these people. Maybe using software. maybe raise some money for them. We need to come together with these problems.

That's what makes GitHub so great, very skilled people that come together to solve problems. Let us start thinking about how to solve it.

 

I'm not really "yelling into a dark closet" am I?

Although I think you have some great points here. Why make accusations like that? A boycott is not a twitter like "cancel". And I'm not really calling for a boycott, I'm trying to start a debate. I'll try to adress some of what you asked here, because there were a lot of good questions.

I've seen a lot of developers, with their paychecks, and their new MacBook Pros, and their iPhone 11 Pros beat their chest talking about civil rights, and human rights, and that's all they do. Bang keys on a keyboard.

I'm actually in a party in Brazil. I worked in David Miranda's first campaign for Rio de Janeiro's city council. Trying to discuss things on the internet is part of what a party can and should do, but here I'm not officially representing them, that's why I didn't mention their name.

This... uproar... of company policies, and who uses their services, etc is a very slippery slope. Where does it end?

I think you made a genuine point here, and maybe there is not a solution like you asked in the end of your comment. It is pretty legitimate to question or even having the right to determine to some extent how the product of your labour will be used. I'm not sure on how to adress this overall, but as I stated in the post, the current MIT-like licenses are creating this situation. The permissiveness of them and the status quo of always using them are creating an ecosystem less healthy than their Free Software predecersors.

You don't have to agree with me here, but don't you think at least that this is worth discussing?

 

I think that things are great for debating and discussing.

On the OS issue. I know you put a license on your repo, but... it's still part of the public sphere now, and you might not even know if someone has ever used your software for good or for evil.
To tht point, there are other comments about "imaginary lines" and that there should be no borders. By that logic, if you put your software in a public space, there should be no license. See what I'm trying to say here.

Debate all you want, and I'd love to work on solutions here. But this isn't like a bus boycott. There are more productive ways we can spend our time making the world a better place.

I'm happy to hear you're involved. We should spend our time getting other people involved, and not polarizing what we determine to be differences in ideology.

There seems to be a serious issue of migration. And we are too busy placing band-aids on the scrapes and cut, and not the hemorrhaging that is happening just prior to the issue.

America can not be a lifeboat. Where does it end? How many people can we let cross the border? 5 million? 50? 100 million? 200 million? There needs to be some responsibility, we all live on this planet together, but we cant all live in the same country. Hell... pretty soon we will have to live on other planets.

These are areas we need to focus on. MEGA. Make Earth Great Again. pardon the trump-pun, but that's the focus. How do we make these countries liveable for the mass migrants? How do we get them clean water and jobs? How do we get their countries good health care, and better food, better schools?

These are the issues. Not ICE. Not GitHub. How do we save their homes so they can return and stay in them? How do we use our collective abilities in technology to raise these people up?

These are the issues. Not ICE. Not GitHub.

Politics is exactly the thing that gives power to decide what "are issues" or not. This kind of "rethoric" as you say, is depoliticizing.

America can not be a lifeboat. Where does it end? How many people can we let cross the border? 5 million? 50? 100 million? 200 million? There needs to be some responsibility, we all live on this planet together, but we cant all live in the same country. Hell... pretty soon we will have to live on other planets.

The USA is the main driver of such migration. Ever since the 50s it has destabilized other nations in Latin America, the Middle-East and Africa for gains in the global political stage and in economy. And it hasn't stopped.

To demand responsibility from the victims of such destabilization is misguided at best. I understand that this is not readily apparent (especially if you are American), but it's how the USA has built its hegemony. There's a reason we call it neocolonialism. Even without an official state presence in the "colonies", the "suzerain" controls and takes resources, without having to deal with any of the consequences that happen to the locals.

And again, dismantling ICE is not equivalent to open borders. As I said in another comment, the US had borders before ICE, and it will continue having them after. There are other countries that have an influx of undocumented migrants, and they don't deal with that situation by putting them in concentration camps with living conditions worse than even "regular" prisons (which shouldn't have terrible conditions either, but that's another topic).

 

Cancel culture is a poison in our civilization.

The words "Cancel culture" is just a new label applied to a concept that exists in any society: Acting badly results in people not wanting to interact with you. In this case, if github is doing something morally reprehensible, I don't see what's so bad about signal-boosting that so that more of our community learns about such reprehensible acts and see that maybe they should find someone else who offers the same service.

Why is it that there is only this type of outrage for this main issue. I don't see developers getting up in arms because modern-day slaves, basically, are the ones cutting the sugarcane for their Redbull and coffee. I don't see developers getting all bent out of shape that bottled water companies are making billions of dollars at the cost of the American taxpayer and selling it at a premium to third world countries that live on less than a dollar a day ( the bottles still cost 3 dollars over there as well ).

This is an odd "whataboutism". Even if we didn't discuss these things you mentioned (we do), this would not make it wrong to discuss other unethical things done by a company our community and profession interacts with so often.

These people did commit a crime. And they continue to commit the same crime, every day. Being in a country, to which they have not gone through the proper process to get in to.

Legalism is a sad thing. If something is in the law but is morally wrong, you should oppose it. That's how progress is made. You don't wash your hands and say "Oh well, nothing can be done here."

 

How could we say "a gente bebe água da bica, é de graça" so English speakers could understand?

Please don't do this. Your sentence didn't make sense. You literally said "some don't have beak to drink shape"

agreed.

Some don't have a spout to drink from.

You don't know our reality. And the literal translation is not enough, that's why I made the question.

Ok. My apologies.

but the same could be said here. You don't know our reality. Careful with saying others don't understand when you are talking about others.

I'd like to register here that the original comment I answered was in Portuguese, and it said "alguns não tem bico para beber forma". It doenst make sense. That was very desrespectful. And Mr Robinson has managed to make it worse, editing it to be in Spanish, saying "Algunos no tienen un pico para beber." Spanish is not a language I'm fluent on and I can't say if this made sense. Particularly I don't know if the term "pico" can be equivalent to "bica", that is a natural source of water, sometimes with a tap installed. This is very common in the Brazil's southeast, and used by low and high income families. I don't know if the English term "spout" would have been suficient for that.

In no way did I mean to offend you. I hope that you will accept my apologies.

Thank you for reminding me why conversing online is a fruitless battle.

Good luck with your endeavors in the future.

A spout is where I get water from as well.

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