I think you conflated two separate answers by two different people 😬
I think both camps have valid points but I've only seen one or two people talking about the value of frameworks in equalizing the developer experience between different levels of skills or in companies with high turnover.
I don't think you always need a framework but I don't also think you never do.
I can hire a mid level developer and outsource the cost of teaching them the parts of my code that are just infrastructure and focus on the actual application exactly because I know that they know where the code is put.
How can I outsource that? By using a framework and make sure they actually know it when interviewing.
Could a good developer be brought up to speed in a frameworkless environment? Sure.
Will it always happen? Nope. I've seen the horror of multi year apps written "just with PHP" (I was hired to rewrite it in Django exactly because nobody knew how it worked and they just kept it there as legacy).
It really depends on the people in this framework less space. You guys are capable developers and made a sensible choice.
As a freelancer I came across small agencies with developers with variable levels of skills with unmaintanable apps using a framework. They would have had unmaintanable apps nonetheless without such framework. The difference is that the new set of eyes (me in that case) was able to just focus on the spaghetti app code, not also the spaghetti infrastructure code.
My personal experience of growing big with a framework is that you ultimately will end up just using it as a layer between your logic and HTML, the more your skills improve.
Something like
def action
# call my business logic, ok bye
# return some HTML
end
I don't see the big difference in the case of a well experienced developer like you are.
My favorite framework is Flask because it just does the boring parts of web apps and can be plugged with functionality pretty easily. Also has a neat concept called blueprints that allows you to put controllers wherever you want
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Chris, Rails has been around for 12 years. I think the first version I used was 3 something, we're almost at 6. It's essentially the same thing.
I think JS frameworks deserve a bit of your distaste but most server side frameworks don't change that fast.
There would be riots if they did.
All covered by libraries, if and when i need them.
Apart from DI, you dont need libraries for DI (although things like frameworks will trick you into thinking you do)
This is a fair point.
I would still contend the overall tone of it being wasteful/impossible to build non-trivial applications without frameworks is bordering on absurd.
Look at most Go projects, you wont find any frameworks there. How are people making "real" things with Go?
I think you conflated two separate answers by two different people 😬
I think both camps have valid points but I've only seen one or two people talking about the value of frameworks in equalizing the developer experience between different levels of skills or in companies with high turnover.
I don't think you always need a framework but I don't also think you never do.
Yes I was trying to reply to both with the quotes but maybe the UX of this site didnt expect such a nested flamewar ;)
I dont disagree at all. I feel like the main point of this post is that it shouldn't be the default position that you do.
I can hire a mid level developer and outsource the cost of teaching them the parts of my code that are just infrastructure and focus on the actual application exactly because I know that they know where the code is put.
How can I outsource that? By using a framework and make sure they actually know it when interviewing.
Could a good developer be brought up to speed in a frameworkless environment? Sure.
Will it always happen? Nope. I've seen the horror of multi year apps written "just with PHP" (I was hired to rewrite it in Django exactly because nobody knew how it worked and they just kept it there as legacy).
It really depends on the people in this framework less space. You guys are capable developers and made a sensible choice.
As a freelancer I came across small agencies with developers with variable levels of skills with unmaintanable apps using a framework. They would have had unmaintanable apps nonetheless without such framework. The difference is that the new set of eyes (me in that case) was able to just focus on the spaghetti app code, not also the spaghetti infrastructure code.
My personal experience of growing big with a framework is that you ultimately will end up just using it as a layer between your logic and HTML, the more your skills improve.
Something like
I don't see the big difference in the case of a well experienced developer like you are.
My favorite framework is Flask because it just does the boring parts of web apps and can be plugged with functionality pretty easily. Also has a neat concept called blueprints that allows you to put controllers wherever you want