I listened but unless some other evidence comes forward I made the decision I feel that there is nothing to do here. Listening to someone does not mean you have to do what they want. This is just basic logic. You're linking listening to blindly believing and then I guess enacting whatever changes they want - why do you think that's appropriate?
I think a few (not just Tatiana) people involved in this are basically throwing tantrums and shouting past each other, I just thought it was very strange to take the side of the person that threw the biggest one. My comment was about how you tend to see this with people that spend too much time online or in homogenous communities. You tend to see things where they aren't because you're conditioned to do so. Someone uses the wrong language or a gesture and that's an issue - they may be well intentioned and have no idea. I know because I work in leftist groups with ages 18-85 so you see a lot of well intentioned people doing good work who have no idea about whatever niche belief there is this month or year.
Just to look at the situation from the equally valid other side (I'm assuming all involved have feelings, failings, beliefs, etc) If I were a person that had no idea about various made-up white power gestures and these accusations were leveled at me - I might feel a bit down. There is collateral damage to these types of tantrums as well.
Nobody really gets to police how anybody feels (oppressed or not), how somebody feels is entirely up to them. I'm unclear how you could even read it that way. I will say that your comment (phrasing, terminology, etc) is a template, I've seen or heard something like this with similar phrases and group-think ideas in it.
What is different about your own comment? Are you policing my opinions? What gives you that right? For some reason you can tell me what to think but not vice versa. LOL, it's ridiculous. Of course you aren't policing my opinions. It is up to me whether I listen to you or not, take any of what you say seriously or not and so on. A person with some emotional intelligence does not let emotions rule their life. Ideally a person can reflect and deal with emotions in a productive way.
How do you feel entitled to declare who is oppressed and who is not? I'm not entirely sure how you did that?
I'm just commenting on strategies that have proven very successful for me when moving in communities that I am not made to feel welcome in but have had to or wanted to navigate anyway. I guess I never thought it was someone else's job to make me feel welcomed but instead I could earn trust and respect and become a member of these communities. If people in a group were acting in bad faith you don't deal with them, that being said you should ideally give people a charitable reading of what they say or what they intend. Most people are, of course, decent people attempting to do the right thing.
What I've seen is that a lot of people cut their nose off to spite their face over perceived injustices just like Tatiana has done in this case. If we react to every perceived injustice rather than actual injustice it would be a nightmare.
I'll keep commenting, unless you want to police me out of doing so? OMG LOL.
I didn't say anyone here was specifically dangerous. I'm referring to, but it's not limited to, the people that have been sending hate to Tatiana.
I listened but unless some other evidence comes forward I made the decision I feel that there is nothing to do here. Listening to someone does not mean you have to do what they want. This is just basic logic. You're linking listening to blindly believing and then I guess enacting whatever changes they want - why do you think that's appropriate?
Women of color are telling us about real problems they're experiencing in tech. It's not very hard to find proof of the gatekeeping and hate they receive. Use Google. Do the work yourself. The burden of proof is on you, not women of color.
I think a few (not just Tatiana) people involved in this are basically throwing tantrums and shouting past each other, I just thought it was very strange to take the side of the person that threw the biggest one. My comment was about how you tend to see this with people that spend too much time online or in homogenous communities. You tend to see things where they aren't because you're conditioned to do so. Someone uses the wrong language or a gesture and that's an issue - they may be well intentioned and have no idea. I know because I work in leftist groups with ages 18-85 so you see a lot of well intentioned people doing good work who have no idea about whatever niche belief there is this month or year.
This situation can't be minimized to a tantrum. Reacting to harassment is not a tantrum. Exiting a space that isn't safe for you isn't throwing a tantrum. Also, it sounds like you haven't seen the slide set that clearly tells us, "Intent does not erase impact." When you learn about how your words/actions have actually impacted people vs. how you intended them to, something that's really important is how you move forward. Apologize, acknowledge what you need to change, and then make the change.
Just to look at the situation from the equally valid other side (I'm assuming all involved have feelings, failings, beliefs, etc) If I were a person that had no idea about various made-up white power gestures and these accusations were leveled at me - I might feel a bit down. There is collateral damage to these types of tantrums as well.
It doesn't feel good getting called out. I refer you back to the previous explanation of intent vs. impact.
Nobody really gets to police how anybody feels (oppressed or not), how somebody feels is entirely up to them. I'm unclear how you could even read it that way. I will say that your comment (phrasing, terminology, etc) is a template, I've seen or heard something like this with similar phrases and group-think ideas in it.
Let me rephrase: you don't get to tell oppressed people whether or not their feelings are valid. Let me also assure you that my words are my own. I'm not sure why you keep trying to insult me.
What is different about your own comment? Are you policing my opinions? What gives you that right? For some reason you can tell me what to think but not vice versa. LOL, it's ridiculous. Of course you aren't policing my opinions. It is up to me whether I listen to you or not, take any of what you say seriously or not and so on. A person with some emotional intelligence does not let emotions rule their life. Ideally a person can reflect and deal with emotions in a productive way.
You can have whatever opinions you want, sure. But I can also tell you when they are damaging to other people. Do with that what you will. I obviously hope you will move forward in a progressive way and try to have less damaging opinions. But this isn't just about emotions. White supremacy is a real, phsyical threat to people of color every single day. Failing to acknowledge that isn't fair to the people who have to face that danger.
How do you feel entitled to declare who is oppressed and who is not? I'm not entirely sure how you did that?
I don't even know what to say here. Read a book (by someone who isn't white).
I'm just commenting on strategies that have proven very successful for me when moving in communities that I am not made to feel welcome in but have had to or wanted to navigate anyway. I guess I never thought it was someone else's job to make me feel welcomed but instead I could earn trust and respect and become a member of these communities. If people in a group were acting in bad faith you don't deal with them, that being said you should ideally give people a charitable reading of what they say or what they intend. Most people are, of course, decent people attempting to do the right thing.
It's clear to me you don't fully understand how racist and sexist systems work. I encourage you to do some research on those. It sounds like you have some sort of privilege that allows you to escape abuse and then easily find another place to go. Not everyone has that ability because the abuse is ingrained in society against them.
What I've seen is that a lot of people cut their nose off to spite their face over perceived injustices just like Tatiana has done in this case. If we react to every perceived injustice rather than actual injustice it would be a nightmare.
The abuse and harassment isn't perceived. All you have to do is look at Tatiana's Twitter mentions. It's not hard to find the proof on your own. And one more time: read a book.
This might be relevant: I don't use twitter for much of the reasons I outlined wrt to online communities, mental health, etc so I only read through the 'factual account' that was linked. Did you notice that the 'proof' everybody knows OK is a white power gesture are Google searches and tweets?! I use something like that gesture all the time, estimating 0 points, how is dinner going, I am okay, etc.
I couldn't see much hate. There were some made-up ideas about gestures and some insinuations and and an outright claim of people being white supremacists (couldn't find proof on this), some things about not using colloquialisms like "crazy" and then an idea that you need to police the entire community if you are to win the approval of some people.
To me it read like drama. Something you might see from high schoolers to be honest - but as I said I just have the document.
On intent vs impact sometimes you might want to change due to your not being received with the intent you had but it is only possible if people tell you. There can't really be a concrete rule here as individuals can take offense at pretty much anything they want, I think there can certainly be norms though.
I've read a bunch of black authors, feminist authors and so on and there doesn't appear to be a universal approach to remedying things or even a shared reason or experience. If there were, there would be one go-to book. If you think that by reading a book you would just have the same views on this topic as you do I think that's unfortunate. I'm not sure how if a community has different ideas that we should have one, unified one. You can believe someone's experience, empathise with them and then still disagree with their reading of a situation or their reaction. Therapists essentially do this.
As I originally said it seems this escalated due to attacks going both ways. She accused someone of being a white supremacist (amongst other things) with absolutely no reason to do so. I'm not sure what was expected after that. I'm sure she has received a heavy dose of negativity and that is gross, but my original point was really that the whole thing just reads like manufactured drama which is separate from the real issues she might face every other day. If she turned off twitter I feel her life might be a lot better.
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Sorry, who was dangerous here?
I listened but unless some other evidence comes forward I made the decision I feel that there is nothing to do here. Listening to someone does not mean you have to do what they want. This is just basic logic. You're linking listening to blindly believing and then I guess enacting whatever changes they want - why do you think that's appropriate?
I think a few (not just Tatiana) people involved in this are basically throwing tantrums and shouting past each other, I just thought it was very strange to take the side of the person that threw the biggest one. My comment was about how you tend to see this with people that spend too much time online or in homogenous communities. You tend to see things where they aren't because you're conditioned to do so. Someone uses the wrong language or a gesture and that's an issue - they may be well intentioned and have no idea. I know because I work in leftist groups with ages 18-85 so you see a lot of well intentioned people doing good work who have no idea about whatever niche belief there is this month or year.
Just to look at the situation from the equally valid other side (I'm assuming all involved have feelings, failings, beliefs, etc) If I were a person that had no idea about various made-up white power gestures and these accusations were leveled at me - I might feel a bit down. There is collateral damage to these types of tantrums as well.
Nobody really gets to police how anybody feels (oppressed or not), how somebody feels is entirely up to them. I'm unclear how you could even read it that way. I will say that your comment (phrasing, terminology, etc) is a template, I've seen or heard something like this with similar phrases and group-think ideas in it.
What is different about your own comment? Are you policing my opinions? What gives you that right? For some reason you can tell me what to think but not vice versa. LOL, it's ridiculous. Of course you aren't policing my opinions. It is up to me whether I listen to you or not, take any of what you say seriously or not and so on. A person with some emotional intelligence does not let emotions rule their life. Ideally a person can reflect and deal with emotions in a productive way.
How do you feel entitled to declare who is oppressed and who is not? I'm not entirely sure how you did that?
I'm just commenting on strategies that have proven very successful for me when moving in communities that I am not made to feel welcome in but have had to or wanted to navigate anyway. I guess I never thought it was someone else's job to make me feel welcomed but instead I could earn trust and respect and become a member of these communities. If people in a group were acting in bad faith you don't deal with them, that being said you should ideally give people a charitable reading of what they say or what they intend. Most people are, of course, decent people attempting to do the right thing.
What I've seen is that a lot of people cut their nose off to spite their face over perceived injustices just like Tatiana has done in this case. If we react to every perceived injustice rather than actual injustice it would be a nightmare.
I'll keep commenting, unless you want to police me out of doing so? OMG LOL.
I didn't say anyone here was specifically dangerous. I'm referring to, but it's not limited to, the people that have been sending hate to Tatiana.
Women of color are telling us about real problems they're experiencing in tech. It's not very hard to find proof of the gatekeeping and hate they receive. Use Google. Do the work yourself. The burden of proof is on you, not women of color.
This situation can't be minimized to a tantrum. Reacting to harassment is not a tantrum. Exiting a space that isn't safe for you isn't throwing a tantrum. Also, it sounds like you haven't seen the slide set that clearly tells us, "Intent does not erase impact." When you learn about how your words/actions have actually impacted people vs. how you intended them to, something that's really important is how you move forward. Apologize, acknowledge what you need to change, and then make the change.
It doesn't feel good getting called out. I refer you back to the previous explanation of intent vs. impact.
Let me rephrase: you don't get to tell oppressed people whether or not their feelings are valid. Let me also assure you that my words are my own. I'm not sure why you keep trying to insult me.
You can have whatever opinions you want, sure. But I can also tell you when they are damaging to other people. Do with that what you will. I obviously hope you will move forward in a progressive way and try to have less damaging opinions. But this isn't just about emotions. White supremacy is a real, phsyical threat to people of color every single day. Failing to acknowledge that isn't fair to the people who have to face that danger.
I don't even know what to say here. Read a book (by someone who isn't white).
It's clear to me you don't fully understand how racist and sexist systems work. I encourage you to do some research on those. It sounds like you have some sort of privilege that allows you to escape abuse and then easily find another place to go. Not everyone has that ability because the abuse is ingrained in society against them.
The abuse and harassment isn't perceived. All you have to do is look at Tatiana's Twitter mentions. It's not hard to find the proof on your own. And one more time: read a book.
This might be relevant: I don't use twitter for much of the reasons I outlined wrt to online communities, mental health, etc so I only read through the 'factual account' that was linked. Did you notice that the 'proof' everybody knows OK is a white power gesture are Google searches and tweets?! I use something like that gesture all the time, estimating 0 points, how is dinner going, I am okay, etc.
I couldn't see much hate. There were some made-up ideas about gestures and some insinuations and and an outright claim of people being white supremacists (couldn't find proof on this), some things about not using colloquialisms like "crazy" and then an idea that you need to police the entire community if you are to win the approval of some people.
To me it read like drama. Something you might see from high schoolers to be honest - but as I said I just have the document.
On intent vs impact sometimes you might want to change due to your not being received with the intent you had but it is only possible if people tell you. There can't really be a concrete rule here as individuals can take offense at pretty much anything they want, I think there can certainly be norms though.
I've read a bunch of black authors, feminist authors and so on and there doesn't appear to be a universal approach to remedying things or even a shared reason or experience. If there were, there would be one go-to book. If you think that by reading a book you would just have the same views on this topic as you do I think that's unfortunate. I'm not sure how if a community has different ideas that we should have one, unified one. You can believe someone's experience, empathise with them and then still disagree with their reading of a situation or their reaction. Therapists essentially do this.
As I originally said it seems this escalated due to attacks going both ways. She accused someone of being a white supremacist (amongst other things) with absolutely no reason to do so. I'm not sure what was expected after that. I'm sure she has received a heavy dose of negativity and that is gross, but my original point was really that the whole thing just reads like manufactured drama which is separate from the real issues she might face every other day. If she turned off twitter I feel her life might be a lot better.