My ideal framework would be the lack of one. For me the web itself should change to support modern apps, and remove the need for any frameworks. As the web was never intended for most of the use we're giving it today.
What I mean is, that the technology/language should already provide what you need to build modern apps without needing a framework on top of it.
Needless to say that this is almost imposible, the web can't change as drastically. So we will need too keep with good old js+html+css+framework+libraries.
What would it look like or how would it work? I have no clue
I disagree I even think the web should be just a wasm runtime and it should not even support html/css/js they should be just a stack people can choose if they want and compile them down. Imagine a world where one website UI is powered by HTML the other by SwiftUI and the next by Qt I think the we should have this kind of openess, of course for all this to work the WebAssembly spec needs to have some system level and graphics stuff added and all need to agree on this but in the end the web should just be a wasm runtime/os of the world.
I don't think I know what you disagree on, you disagree on what my framework would be? or that it will never get to that point?
I think the we should have this kind of openess
I have to disagree here, that's what I was going to. There are way to many options to build a website, making it harder to learn and making it quite dificult to beginers to start. As the first challengue is to decide which of the 1000 frameworks to start learning. It also makes it more dificult to introduce standards (just look at javascript, and how it changes from engine to engine), imagine what would happen if you could code them in 10 diferent languages like (Swift, Qt, etc...) what a nightmare.
For me ideally there would be one and only one way of doing it, can seem quite extreme though :D
You think to complicated, you need to think of my concept as an OS for the world, and running wasm is exactly what you want it runs everywhere the same, you said only one way and this is ONE way there is a compile step which makes this possible, and you don't need to learn every language you simply learn the stack you like, the browsers being able only to do what they do now is what makes the ecosystem complicated.
Web Dev full-stack [LAMP] since 2005, but much heavier on the JS stuff these days.
Jack of all Stacks, Master of some.
Always looking to learn new things. Always glad to help out, just ask.
Location
Atlanta, GA
Education
B.S. in Biochemistry 2004, M.S. in Computer Information Systems 2007
I used React/Vue/Angular, hated them all, especially the NPM install needs. The depencies are a disasted.
So, I dug into what's needed to build a SPA 'framework/library'
I made taino.netlify.app/
It's 1 script, no npm install needed [i recommend using live-server just to run it as it updates soon as you make changes]
It's 13KB uncompressed, 3kb compressed via netlify.
To see if it could be used to make a full scale website, I made indiegameshowcase.org as a proof-of-concept-turned-actual-product website.
If you know JavaScript you can write Taino. It takes an experienced dev maybe 2 hours to pick it up, junior devs need a bit more hand holding.
1) I think you're talking about front-end web frameworks (i.e. running client side, and by definition today, Javascript enhancements).
2) The original question does hold a similar bias, but I'll note that frameworks exist in a load of other contexts, not least what in web terms would be called the back end.
3) I don't think your dream is so unreasonable or even unlikely per se, but may well be long lasting (so meaningfully not likely to happen). Javascript is, IMHO evolving as a language probably faster than any other. It lags behind frameworks of course, because it's in a different game, namely specifying what browsers should be supporting (their end users if you will are the web browser producers). Javascript frameworks by comparison are the converse in both respects, they have to support popular browsers and their customers are web developers. And so I see the role that these frameworks provide is different but also changing as, over time Javascript absorbs the best of what they offer, that can sensibly we imposed as a standard upon browser producers.
Yup that's correct, I was referring to front-end web frameworks specifically. I don't think we should group/compare front-end, backend and mobile frameworks, as they are world of themselves.
And yea, I agree with point 3. That's the reason why I think it's unlikely to happen, at least in the near future. Though I hope we get there at some point :D
My idea was, if we could build the web now, what would we do differently? Most likely everything
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This might be controversial, but:
My ideal framework would be the lack of one. For me the web itself should change to support modern apps, and remove the need for any frameworks. As the web was never intended for most of the use we're giving it today.
What I mean is, that the technology/language should already provide what you need to build modern apps without needing a framework on top of it.
Needless to say that this is almost imposible, the web can't change as drastically. So we will need too keep with good old js+html+css+framework+libraries.
What would it look like or how would it work? I have no clue
Exactly
But as you said, this would be impossible. We would have to literally relearn web development.
Not only re-learn it, but re-build it and re-implement it everywhere
I disagree I even think the web should be just a wasm runtime and it should not even support html/css/js they should be just a stack people can choose if they want and compile them down. Imagine a world where one website UI is powered by HTML the other by SwiftUI and the next by Qt I think the we should have this kind of openess, of course for all this to work the WebAssembly spec needs to have some system level and graphics stuff added and all need to agree on this but in the end the web should just be a wasm runtime/os of the world.
Hey there Ivan!
I don't think I know what you disagree on, you disagree on what my framework would be? or that it will never get to that point?
I have to disagree here, that's what I was going to. There are way to many options to build a website, making it harder to learn and making it quite dificult to beginers to start. As the first challengue is to decide which of the 1000 frameworks to start learning. It also makes it more dificult to introduce standards (just look at javascript, and how it changes from engine to engine), imagine what would happen if you could code them in 10 diferent languages like (Swift, Qt, etc...) what a nightmare.
For me ideally there would be one and only one way of doing it, can seem quite extreme though :D
You think to complicated, you need to think of my concept as an OS for the world, and running wasm is exactly what you want it runs everywhere the same, you said only one way and this is ONE way there is a compile step which makes this possible, and you don't need to learn every language you simply learn the stack you like, the browsers being able only to do what they do now is what makes the ecosystem complicated.
Ohh I see, you mean the web being some kind of OS? that can run any code compiled for it?
Then yeah, I agree with that. That could be one solution, though quite a huge one!
Exactly 😀
Well said. screw frameworks
They are the most deceiving tools on the web, yet, we happily use them as if they give us convenience.
I'd say create a series of html documents and put them in as template files in a expressjs app and you're good to go. Let us devs sort out the rest.
OR IS IT?
I used React/Vue/Angular, hated them all, especially the NPM install needs. The depencies are a disasted.
So, I dug into what's needed to build a SPA 'framework/library'
I made taino.netlify.app/
It's 1 script, no npm install needed [i recommend using live-server just to run it as it updates soon as you make changes]
It's 13KB uncompressed, 3kb compressed via netlify.
To see if it could be used to make a full scale website, I made indiegameshowcase.org as a proof-of-concept-turned-actual-product website.
If you know JavaScript you can write Taino. It takes an experienced dev maybe 2 hours to pick it up, junior devs need a bit more hand holding.
1) I think you're talking about front-end web frameworks (i.e. running client side, and by definition today, Javascript enhancements).
2) The original question does hold a similar bias, but I'll note that frameworks exist in a load of other contexts, not least what in web terms would be called the back end.
3) I don't think your dream is so unreasonable or even unlikely per se, but may well be long lasting (so meaningfully not likely to happen). Javascript is, IMHO evolving as a language probably faster than any other. It lags behind frameworks of course, because it's in a different game, namely specifying what browsers should be supporting (their end users if you will are the web browser producers). Javascript frameworks by comparison are the converse in both respects, they have to support popular browsers and their customers are web developers. And so I see the role that these frameworks provide is different but also changing as, over time Javascript absorbs the best of what they offer, that can sensibly we imposed as a standard upon browser producers.
Yup that's correct, I was referring to front-end web frameworks specifically. I don't think we should group/compare front-end, backend and mobile frameworks, as they are world of themselves.
And yea, I agree with point 3. That's the reason why I think it's unlikely to happen, at least in the near future. Though I hope we get there at some point :D
My idea was, if we could build the web now, what would we do differently? Most likely everything