As a person who went through K-12 and University and still didn't learn calculus, I totally hear you.
But claiming that math education isn't successful because less than 1% of folks learn calculus (a specific, frequently not mandatory, subset) is a bit disingenuous. The fundamental shift that basic numeracy and literacy has had on the workforce over just the last 100 years proves that basic education goes a very long way.
Programming will probably look much the same. Students will learn the basics, maybe a scripting language and some web technology then go on their merry way. Very few will learn advanced algorithms, functional paradigms and design patterns etc. But look around you - most of today's entry-level, but highly paid, developers don't know these things either (true from my experience at a lot of large companies - your experience may vary).
We're not going to be graduating fully qualified programmers from high school (just like we don't graduate math geniuses), but we will be graduating way more folks with the minimal skillset to get the job done. It's these folks who will represent the new entry-level for the software industry, and their pay will match their youth and experience.
Putting math on the same level as programming doesn't make sense if you take into account the fact that it is only an elective in high school (not sure if its the same thing in your country, but in Canada it really doesn't get much attention). I haven't seen good programming teachers in high schools either (quite a few good math teachers in comparison), and I don't see this changing any time soon.
Fair point about the current state of math vs programming. But on whether this changes any time soon:
Where I'm from (Australia) and where I've lived (Germany and USA) there are consistent an well supported pushes to adjust curriculums to include software skills/programming as core subjects through K-12 schooling.
A lot of what I'm saying is based on a reality that exists after these changes have been made.
All things staying as they are now, the situation will likely look very different.
Most engineering subjects get incorporated into different classes (math, physics, chemistry, etc). From a logistical point of view you'd probably need to have a class dedicated to computing which is something that I just don't see happening. If you look at how advanced GUI-based "programming" (e.g., SaaS products such as Jira) has become learning how to write code isn't essential enough to justify this.
To your first point: I had core computing classes throughout high-school. In those days they were there to help you get proficient with Word, Excel etc. (they were the big "you have to know these to get a good job" tools at the time). In my last couple of years the curriculum was expanded to include a number of Python programming modules. So I wouldn't say having a dedicated computing class is all that far fetched.
I think delving into a conversation about whether learning to code will be essential going forward might be a bit too tangental for this thread.
Good chat, though. It's always interesting to see a different perspective 👍
As a person who went through K-12 and University and still didn't learn calculus, I totally hear you.
But claiming that math education isn't successful because less than 1% of folks learn calculus (a specific, frequently not mandatory, subset) is a bit disingenuous. The fundamental shift that basic numeracy and literacy has had on the workforce over just the last 100 years proves that basic education goes a very long way.
Programming will probably look much the same. Students will learn the basics, maybe a scripting language and some web technology then go on their merry way. Very few will learn advanced algorithms, functional paradigms and design patterns etc. But look around you - most of today's entry-level, but highly paid, developers don't know these things either (true from my experience at a lot of large companies - your experience may vary).
We're not going to be graduating fully qualified programmers from high school (just like we don't graduate math geniuses), but we will be graduating way more folks with the minimal skillset to get the job done. It's these folks who will represent the new entry-level for the software industry, and their pay will match their youth and experience.
Putting math on the same level as programming doesn't make sense if you take into account the fact that it is only an elective in high school (not sure if its the same thing in your country, but in Canada it really doesn't get much attention). I haven't seen good programming teachers in high schools either (quite a few good math teachers in comparison), and I don't see this changing any time soon.
Fair point about the current state of math vs programming. But on whether this changes any time soon:
Where I'm from (Australia) and where I've lived (Germany and USA) there are consistent an well supported pushes to adjust curriculums to include software skills/programming as core subjects through K-12 schooling.
A lot of what I'm saying is based on a reality that exists after these changes have been made.
All things staying as they are now, the situation will likely look very different.
Most engineering subjects get incorporated into different classes (math, physics, chemistry, etc). From a logistical point of view you'd probably need to have a class dedicated to computing which is something that I just don't see happening. If you look at how advanced GUI-based "programming" (e.g., SaaS products such as Jira) has become learning how to write code isn't essential enough to justify this.
To your first point: I had core computing classes throughout high-school. In those days they were there to help you get proficient with Word, Excel etc. (they were the big "you have to know these to get a good job" tools at the time). In my last couple of years the curriculum was expanded to include a number of Python programming modules. So I wouldn't say having a dedicated computing class is all that far fetched.
I think delving into a conversation about whether learning to code will be essential going forward might be a bit too tangental for this thread.
Good chat, though. It's always interesting to see a different perspective 👍
Yea, maybe my country is just a bit behind on this.