Web developer at Greggs, UK with a proficiency in VueJS, Tailwind, and Storyblok, as well as other frameworks. I'm also passionate about web design, and mobile app development.
I couldn't agree more - and the worst part is, I use it to my disadvantage sometimes.
As the only woman on my university computing course, it's commonplace to hear snide comments this way and that. Often it is about my lack of ability or even just boys joking about their 'ball and chain'. When I ask for help, it's never given with a smile and a 'sure, I'd love to share what I know with you'. It's prefaced with a look that says, 'oh, you mean you don't know this already?'
Never is it mentioned that my grades are equal to - if not higher than - theirs, despite having studied computing for far less time than them.
And yet, when I make mistakes, as can happen to even the best programmers, I am quick to perpetuate the stereotype. I insult myself; I make light of the situation and even call myself names. It saves me the embarrassment of admitting that my talents should not have let such a mistake occur.
There's clearly a culture within computing that implies developers must know everything and apply this knowledge without fault, 24/7. It's a culture that needs to shift and quickly. I'd hate to think of young women coming into my role being met with the same hostility.
I really don't think it has anything to do with gender-related prejudice. I believe that this attitude exists to whatever degree it exists towards everyone with no discrimination.
Not saying it's a good thing, but it's totally different than thinking that the field is full of men that see women as less knowledgeable/skilled/talented. I'm pretty sure I'd know if I was surrounded by such people for the last 20 years.
Web developer at Greggs, UK with a proficiency in VueJS, Tailwind, and Storyblok, as well as other frameworks. I'm also passionate about web design, and mobile app development.
This is where we may have to agree to disagree, I think. Certainly I do not intend to tar all people with the same brush; however, I do think there are discrete, nuanced ways in which a gender bias can occur - and in a male dominated industry, that bias can go unchecked for a long time. It can be as simple as comments about "the wife" or it can go as far as a lack of maternal support creating a female workforce defecit of up to 50%. There's a lot of research into this topic.
I'm very glad you can recognise that there's a culture issue within the industry, because frankly some people will not, but I will say that I think it's not quite as black and white as being 100% a gender issue and 100% not one at all.
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I just think there are two different things mixed in one bag that should be treated as separate:
Is there a common conception among men in IT that women shouldn't be picked for whatever role because they are less capable? Not in my experience. Of course in general I've met people that would value the worth of others based on their gender, religion, political beliefs, sexual identity, even favourite football club. But they are outliers -and tend to be of limited intelligence.
Are there circumstances that can put women to a disadvantage for certain professions or roles? Yes, definitely, but this is where it gets complicated.
Here's some examples based what I've observed (please correct me if your experience is different):
1) In all fields there are roles that involve working ridiculously long/odd hours, travelling all the time, negotiating aggressively with other parties, being 100% focused to the extent that you don't get much free time or personal life. For whatever reason, more men seem to be OK with that than women. I am not one of these men -most men aren't-, but I do see that it is more common to find men that are OK with making these sacrifices (many of which don't even consider them sacrifices -they just enjoy the rush) than women. I don't know why -it could be a biological factor, it could be a personality trait acquired by the different way men and women are raised.
Obviously people who are willing to sacrifice more for a job have (and must have) a competitive advantage, how can we possibly equalise against that factor?
2) I see that women tend to more often be inclined to settle in a job than be career savvy and actively chase opportunities -regardless of the industry. I also like to settle for whatever I have if I find it good enough. But I see that it is much more common among men to constantly be restless, on the look for maximizing the outcome of their situation -seek competitive employment offers, leverage it to ask for pay-rise, push things. Why do you think that happens? Again it could have either biological or acquirable roots -but how could someone trying to equalize the statistical split possibly deal with it?
That's why I don't think seeking a perfect representation of genders everywhere is very realistic.
Though I did like Karen's article you linked. She made some balanced, fair points and I absolutely agree that the challenges of balancing work with maternity (parenthood in general but obviously maternity is the most challenging part) should be supported as much as possible. My mother quit her academic career, taking an early retirement to raise me -and I wish that she didn't have to.
But I don't think it's realistic to expect businesses to carry that cost, the only way it could work is if it was carried by the state.
PS. Sorry, I know you were focusing on how some behaviours common in IT can alienate women -I just don't have much to say about it. I can see what you mean, I never saw it being gender-targeted but I do see that women are more troubled by it than men. It would be good if we all tried to be nice to each other and it would be good if women could have a bit thicker skin.
I'd like to encourage you with the observation that during my career as a dev in the Australian Public Service I saw many women enter the service as developers, and within a few years they were my superiors. I never had a female boss I disliked or could not get along with. I personally never felt the need to seek promotion, and there was definitely a lot of devs who didn't. They were all men. Perhaps they were difficult men, I can't say. But I know I didn't advance because I did not have the personality for dealing with and managing other people. It's pretty obvious that there is a certain type who love coding and dev work. I'll leave it to others to decide whether that co-incides with hostility toward females. But, my point is; if you are like my female colleagues, you won't be content to stay a dev but will want to move up. The devs you initially find yourselves with won't trouble you for long. That said, at higher levels of big organisations you definitely have to be resilient enough to deal with some difficult, and definitely pretentious and arrogant people. Don't let them stop you.
Web developer at Greggs, UK with a proficiency in VueJS, Tailwind, and Storyblok, as well as other frameworks. I'm also passionate about web design, and mobile app development.
UK-resident here. I'm attributing the toxicity a little to the immaturity of my classmates who are yet to benefit from the years of experience. I've also heard that some branches of tech communities can be quite toxic. 😊
My situation is slightly better with half of the class being girls. However, there are some people who have coded in the field for many years before. Those people always make snide comments on the beginners and how they can't code. They're the reason why I'm afraid to ever admit I can code.
Web developer at Greggs, UK with a proficiency in VueJS, Tailwind, and Storyblok, as well as other frameworks. I'm also passionate about web design, and mobile app development.
It's nice to hear about such great diversity! The other comments, however, do prove the original point of the article. There's such a toxic culture in computing and programming. I can't wait to get stuck in and combat it from the inside-outwards. 😈
I serve the people of Texas by working as a full-stack web developer for a state agency based in Austin. When not coding, I'm exploring all that Austin has to offer (especially their restaurants!).
Exactly one of the reasons I didn't pursue computer science when at university. I took a few programming classes and while I loved it, being the only woman in my classes was intimidating and isolating. And the 'oh you don't know this already' looks were prevalent back then too. So, major props to you! Keep it up, the rewards down the road will be great.
If I could go back in time, I would have stuck with it, and push back on the differential treatment by speaking up. I do now, in work environment that are predominately male and conservative, and it's gotten me more respect along the way.
Web developer at Greggs, UK with a proficiency in VueJS, Tailwind, and Storyblok, as well as other frameworks. I'm also passionate about web design, and mobile app development.
I'm sorry that the toxicity of the classes put you off. It's an unfortunate story around the world. I recently read a New York Times article that really delves into the gender imbalance in computing. It mentions this sort of attitude and really puts into perspective why girls are put off of the subject when we used to run this industry. It uses university studies that were done only a few years ago. Ironically enough, it's now reached a point where as many people ask me for help as I do them. It's an opportunity to turn things around by not stooping to their level, by making change from the front lines.
I wouldn't worry too much about going back in time. There's so many courses and information online that almost anybody can learn coding these days. I hope you continue to keep up with it though!
// , “It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the important things. The monkey wears an expression of seriousness... but the monkey is serious because he itches."(No/No)
I think the only time I've given that look was when a supposed "AWS Architect" struggled to deploy a single ec2 instance, and had to suppress just such a look when a supposed "Hands-on Linux CI/CD expert" didn't know how to navigate around folders in Linux. I had to introduce the cd command.
Incompetence I can relate to, given my own mediocre abilities, but people lying to me that they're some kind of expert without even having done a web search about a topic really chaps my ass.
Web developer at Greggs, UK with a proficiency in VueJS, Tailwind, and Storyblok, as well as other frameworks. I'm also passionate about web design, and mobile app development.
I couldn't agree more - and the worst part is, I use it to my disadvantage sometimes.
As the only woman on my university computing course, it's commonplace to hear snide comments this way and that. Often it is about my lack of ability or even just boys joking about their 'ball and chain'. When I ask for help, it's never given with a smile and a 'sure, I'd love to share what I know with you'. It's prefaced with a look that says, 'oh, you mean you don't know this already?'
Never is it mentioned that my grades are equal to - if not higher than - theirs, despite having studied computing for far less time than them.
And yet, when I make mistakes, as can happen to even the best programmers, I am quick to perpetuate the stereotype. I insult myself; I make light of the situation and even call myself names. It saves me the embarrassment of admitting that my talents should not have let such a mistake occur.
There's clearly a culture within computing that implies developers must know everything and apply this knowledge without fault, 24/7. It's a culture that needs to shift and quickly. I'd hate to think of young women coming into my role being met with the same hostility.
I really don't think it has anything to do with gender-related prejudice. I believe that this attitude exists to whatever degree it exists towards everyone with no discrimination.
Not saying it's a good thing, but it's totally different than thinking that the field is full of men that see women as less knowledgeable/skilled/talented. I'm pretty sure I'd know if I was surrounded by such people for the last 20 years.
This is where we may have to agree to disagree, I think. Certainly I do not intend to tar all people with the same brush; however, I do think there are discrete, nuanced ways in which a gender bias can occur - and in a male dominated industry, that bias can go unchecked for a long time. It can be as simple as comments about "the wife" or it can go as far as a lack of maternal support creating a female workforce defecit of up to 50%. There's a lot of research into this topic.
I'm very glad you can recognise that there's a culture issue within the industry, because frankly some people will not, but I will say that I think it's not quite as black and white as being 100% a gender issue and 100% not one at all.
I just think there are two different things mixed in one bag that should be treated as separate:
Is there a common conception among men in IT that women shouldn't be picked for whatever role because they are less capable? Not in my experience. Of course in general I've met people that would value the worth of others based on their gender, religion, political beliefs, sexual identity, even favourite football club. But they are outliers -and tend to be of limited intelligence.
Are there circumstances that can put women to a disadvantage for certain professions or roles? Yes, definitely, but this is where it gets complicated.
Here's some examples based what I've observed (please correct me if your experience is different):
1) In all fields there are roles that involve working ridiculously long/odd hours, travelling all the time, negotiating aggressively with other parties, being 100% focused to the extent that you don't get much free time or personal life. For whatever reason, more men seem to be OK with that than women. I am not one of these men -most men aren't-, but I do see that it is more common to find men that are OK with making these sacrifices (many of which don't even consider them sacrifices -they just enjoy the rush) than women. I don't know why -it could be a biological factor, it could be a personality trait acquired by the different way men and women are raised.
Obviously people who are willing to sacrifice more for a job have (and must have) a competitive advantage, how can we possibly equalise against that factor?
2) I see that women tend to more often be inclined to settle in a job than be career savvy and actively chase opportunities -regardless of the industry. I also like to settle for whatever I have if I find it good enough. But I see that it is much more common among men to constantly be restless, on the look for maximizing the outcome of their situation -seek competitive employment offers, leverage it to ask for pay-rise, push things. Why do you think that happens? Again it could have either biological or acquirable roots -but how could someone trying to equalize the statistical split possibly deal with it?
That's why I don't think seeking a perfect representation of genders everywhere is very realistic.
Though I did like Karen's article you linked. She made some balanced, fair points and I absolutely agree that the challenges of balancing work with maternity (parenthood in general but obviously maternity is the most challenging part) should be supported as much as possible. My mother quit her academic career, taking an early retirement to raise me -and I wish that she didn't have to.
But I don't think it's realistic to expect businesses to carry that cost, the only way it could work is if it was carried by the state.
PS. Sorry, I know you were focusing on how some behaviours common in IT can alienate women -I just don't have much to say about it. I can see what you mean, I never saw it being gender-targeted but I do see that women are more troubled by it than men. It would be good if we all tried to be nice to each other and it would be good if women could have a bit thicker skin.
I'd like to encourage you with the observation that during my career as a dev in the Australian Public Service I saw many women enter the service as developers, and within a few years they were my superiors. I never had a female boss I disliked or could not get along with. I personally never felt the need to seek promotion, and there was definitely a lot of devs who didn't. They were all men. Perhaps they were difficult men, I can't say. But I know I didn't advance because I did not have the personality for dealing with and managing other people. It's pretty obvious that there is a certain type who love coding and dev work. I'll leave it to others to decide whether that co-incides with hostility toward females. But, my point is; if you are like my female colleagues, you won't be content to stay a dev but will want to move up. The devs you initially find yourselves with won't trouble you for long. That said, at higher levels of big organisations you definitely have to be resilient enough to deal with some difficult, and definitely pretentious and arrogant people. Don't let them stop you.
I should add: to address the initial question; Pretentiousness and arrogance are not distinctive marks of devs.
Where in the world are you based?
That toxic culture has not been something I’ve experienced outside of consulting in 13 years as a dev in Copenhagen.
I would be interesting to know how global that behavior is, or maybe there’s another factor, like I’ve heard .net culture can be pretty toxic. :)
Granted, I have no experience with official education, maybe that’s different. :/
UK-resident here. I'm attributing the toxicity a little to the immaturity of my classmates who are yet to benefit from the years of experience. I've also heard that some branches of tech communities can be quite toxic. 😊
My situation is slightly better with half of the class being girls. However, there are some people who have coded in the field for many years before. Those people always make snide comments on the beginners and how they can't code. They're the reason why I'm afraid to ever admit I can code.
It's nice to hear about such great diversity! The other comments, however, do prove the original point of the article. There's such a toxic culture in computing and programming. I can't wait to get stuck in and combat it from the inside-outwards. 😈
YASSSS! I'm striving to make the community more diverse!!
Exactly one of the reasons I didn't pursue computer science when at university. I took a few programming classes and while I loved it, being the only woman in my classes was intimidating and isolating. And the 'oh you don't know this already' looks were prevalent back then too. So, major props to you! Keep it up, the rewards down the road will be great.
If I could go back in time, I would have stuck with it, and push back on the differential treatment by speaking up. I do now, in work environment that are predominately male and conservative, and it's gotten me more respect along the way.
I'm sorry that the toxicity of the classes put you off. It's an unfortunate story around the world. I recently read a New York Times article that really delves into the gender imbalance in computing. It mentions this sort of attitude and really puts into perspective why girls are put off of the subject when we used to run this industry. It uses university studies that were done only a few years ago. Ironically enough, it's now reached a point where as many people ask me for help as I do them. It's an opportunity to turn things around by not stooping to their level, by making change from the front lines.
I wouldn't worry too much about going back in time. There's so many courses and information online that almost anybody can learn coding these days. I hope you continue to keep up with it though!
I've gotten this all the time, and still do.
I think the only time I've given that look was when a supposed "AWS Architect" struggled to deploy a single ec2 instance, and had to suppress just such a look when a supposed "Hands-on Linux CI/CD expert" didn't know how to navigate around folders in Linux. I had to introduce the
cdcommand.Incompetence I can relate to, given my own mediocre abilities, but people lying to me that they're some kind of expert without even having done a web search about a topic really chaps my ass.
It's so exhausting, isn't it? Though I'll admit I'd not considered the other perspective on quite that way. I'm glad you brought it up!