One of the most salient features of our Tech Hiring culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted.
@tevita
Dave, I'm not sure where you have seen an online jury here.
If it was an online jury, there would be someone accused.
Who is accused here? I can't find it.
Where does she say:
John Doe from Foo Corporation is a bad person.
I am right and he is wrong.
Please help me proving it dear online jury!
Instead, what she did was to talk openly about her own struggle of being disrespected and ignored in a job, and how she coped with it. That is useful for other people facing a similar scenario, which does happen in the real world.
And how did you choose to answer?
You seem pretty sure that the facts are in dispute,
and that she is wrong, and so that it's OK to not listen.
I am sorry but I think you are mistaken.
The facts are not in dispute here, and I don't think it is OK to choose to not listen.
I think we need to ask more productive questions here.
May I ask what is your own experience of being disrespected and ignored in a job?
That piece of context would probably make it easier for Desire and you to relate on something concrete.
Jean-Michel, regarding the "context", I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle.
I spent a number of years in an office where we heard a lot of complaints similar to Desires - as in, my immediate manager was a conduit point (shoulder-to-cry on, or "mother hen") for anyone who felt wronged by their management or colleagues, so we had a steady stream of them. Inevitably, we collectively jumped on-board with their complaints.
The silence (in reality, the observance of confidentiality and professional conduct) from the people, or institutional groupings, that were being accused of bullying by these people, we simply took to be more evidence of wrong-doing. Or at the very least, it gave us a very one-sided impression of where fault lay - a naive assumption on our part.
There were two turning points for me. The first was when I self-assuredly intervened on someone else's behalf, berating management for their callous attitude. And for once, management stood up for itself and put me in my place. I felt like an idiot and rightly so - especially as evidence began to emerge of where the real wrong-doing was.
But more importantly, over time, I began to see that far from the team I was on being a nurturing environment, which provided support to all the poorly treated individuals in our office....we were in fact the problem. We became a focal point for people looking for support when others had rightly turned their backs on them. And we became a festering sore for our organisation, encouraging negativity and ourselves being creating a terrible environment for those who weren't in our circle. Our team avoided work while complaining of over-work, had the lowest productivity in the organisation (despite telling ourselves we had one of the highest) and every problem was someone else's.
We were toxic. Yet in the bubble we existed, we believed everyone else was toxic.
It was learning experience in organisational psychology for me, and one I have seen repeated across many sectors.
None of this is to say that in my management capacity I don't take allegations seriously. I am centrally involved in these sorts of cases and called upon when they occur elsewhere, following very strict guidelines that almost always err on the side of the complainant.
But as harmful as bullying is, a culture of unjustified accusations, or where certain individuals stoke up these claims, is just as toxic and often more widely damaging.
This is only an internet message board. But especially here I am wary of taking someone's claim at face value. There could be a whole other version of events here that don't fit Desire's narrative. And even if she is 100% correct, her reaction to what has been quite moderate feedback from a number of people (I forget if it's here or on her other thread about the same issue) does set some alarm bells ringing in my head.
One of the most salient features of our Tech Hiring culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted.
@tevita That's actually helpful to understand where do you speak from. Thanks. It's good that assumed your own part of responsability in your context.
At the same time, it's always risky to project your own autobiography to someone's else context that you don't know. Because it may simply be completly different. And it's exactly what she was trying to say but nobody listened
You still know nothing about me, my career, my experience, my projects, my work or my skills.
Context is key. You knew the context at your company, you don't know the author's context. In that case, I think it's better to suspend your own judgement
Jean-Michel, I think we are still speaking at cross purposes here. I am being open in my judgement and have no views on her capabilities. While our own contexts are of value, everyone commenting here could be said to let their own life experience colour their reactions.
To her original claim, I'm sympathetic. But from her subsequent responses to people's posts, I can't help but feel there is more at play here. Surely it would be remiss of anyone reading this to only be attentive to the comments she makes which support her position and overlook the ones which cast doubt?
For instance, I offered a pretty innocuous and harmless judgement in one of my own replies to her. It was the kind of judgement I would be 100% open to receiving from any employee in my organisation, whether senior or junior, and would deem it entirely appropriate to receive comments far more harshly worded or abrasive (some people are busy and have to deliver very direct messages, some come from cultural contexts where its entirely normal, and so on).
Desire's own reaction was to declare it a violation of the code of conduct. Now she is of course free to do so. But it strikes me that if that is the approach being taken to what may be constructive advice (advice she asked for), and if that attitude was also replicated in her workplace, then I am not at all surprised she is clashing with her colleagues and that they do not consider her mature enough to be considered anything other than "junior".
In many ways, it is great that she is raising her concern here. She gets to have a full and frank discussion, outside of the workplace, and see that people may perceive her in varied ways. And that there isn't necessarily any malice or ill-feeling in their viewpoints, even if they make critical comments. This can be a positive learning experience and may even resolve the issues she is having in her workplace if taken on board. This is in fact the kind of maturity that is necessary to become "mid-level" or "senior" in any role and as others have said (and which I think she would agree with), it is not simply about the years spent in a role that defines your level.
Seniority and management can be hell. It asks tough decisions of people and burdens you with substantial responsibilities. Progression in a workplace is largely about taking on increasing degrees of management responsibility. It absolutely requires you to be able to take on criticism without flinching. To be critical of your own performance. To be open to viewpoints you may not wish to hear. And it requires you to be able to let others take credit, even if you think you are doing all the work.
That's a shame Desire. I think there is a lot to be learnt from that person's post. They may have phrased their words less carefully than they could have. But I don't think being addressed in that manner (whether aimed at you, or me) is "toxic" or overly harsh. I've certainly had far harsher language used against myself before ;-) ....and learnt some good lessons from it.
They made a good point about something called "intermediate syndrome". It is something that affects all people in every area of life; the point where you go from feeling like you know very little, to feeling like you know a lot. Where suddenly you brim with confidence and may start expecting from others, or making demands, that actually you aren't ready to make. It's at that point that some of life's biggest mistakes creep in (I am familiar with it from the aviation industry, as it is the point in a pilot's development well where they are most dangerous to themselves and others - thinking they are better than they really are).
You're very right, I don't know everything (or much at all even). So I will leave the discussion there, as we're clearly not finding it constructive.
However, I think it would really be good for you to come back to this and review it all in a few weeks, months, or even years time. You may or may not feel different in future and there is a lot of varied (and therefore usual) information in everyone's posts here.
You're right, I will come back, remember how ignored I was, how some men on the internet claimed to know more about me than myself, and then I'll be thankful that I found a place where I get the credit and respect that I deserve.
For further actions, you may consider blocking this person and/or reporting abuse
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@tevita Dave, I'm not sure where you have seen an online jury here.
If it was an online jury, there would be someone accused.
Who is accused here? I can't find it.
Where does she say:
Instead, what she did was to talk openly about her own struggle of being disrespected and ignored in a job, and how she coped with it. That is useful for other people facing a similar scenario, which does happen in the real world.
And how did you choose to answer?
You seem pretty sure that the facts are in dispute,
and that she is wrong, and so that it's OK to not listen.
I am sorry but I think you are mistaken.
The facts are not in dispute here, and I don't think it is OK to choose to not listen.
I think we need to ask more productive questions here.
May I ask what is your own experience of being disrespected and ignored in a job?
That piece of context would probably make it easier for Desire and you to relate on something concrete.
Jean-Michel, regarding the "context", I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle.
I spent a number of years in an office where we heard a lot of complaints similar to Desires - as in, my immediate manager was a conduit point (shoulder-to-cry on, or "mother hen") for anyone who felt wronged by their management or colleagues, so we had a steady stream of them. Inevitably, we collectively jumped on-board with their complaints.
The silence (in reality, the observance of confidentiality and professional conduct) from the people, or institutional groupings, that were being accused of bullying by these people, we simply took to be more evidence of wrong-doing. Or at the very least, it gave us a very one-sided impression of where fault lay - a naive assumption on our part.
There were two turning points for me. The first was when I self-assuredly intervened on someone else's behalf, berating management for their callous attitude. And for once, management stood up for itself and put me in my place. I felt like an idiot and rightly so - especially as evidence began to emerge of where the real wrong-doing was.
But more importantly, over time, I began to see that far from the team I was on being a nurturing environment, which provided support to all the poorly treated individuals in our office....we were in fact the problem. We became a focal point for people looking for support when others had rightly turned their backs on them. And we became a festering sore for our organisation, encouraging negativity and ourselves being creating a terrible environment for those who weren't in our circle. Our team avoided work while complaining of over-work, had the lowest productivity in the organisation (despite telling ourselves we had one of the highest) and every problem was someone else's.
We were toxic. Yet in the bubble we existed, we believed everyone else was toxic.
It was learning experience in organisational psychology for me, and one I have seen repeated across many sectors.
None of this is to say that in my management capacity I don't take allegations seriously. I am centrally involved in these sorts of cases and called upon when they occur elsewhere, following very strict guidelines that almost always err on the side of the complainant.
But as harmful as bullying is, a culture of unjustified accusations, or where certain individuals stoke up these claims, is just as toxic and often more widely damaging.
This is only an internet message board. But especially here I am wary of taking someone's claim at face value. There could be a whole other version of events here that don't fit Desire's narrative. And even if she is 100% correct, her reaction to what has been quite moderate feedback from a number of people (I forget if it's here or on her other thread about the same issue) does set some alarm bells ringing in my head.
@tevita That's actually helpful to understand where do you speak from. Thanks. It's good that assumed your own part of responsability in your context.
At the same time, it's always risky to project your own autobiography to someone's else context that you don't know. Because it may simply be completly different. And it's exactly what she was trying to say but nobody listened
Context is key. You knew the context at your company, you don't know the author's context. In that case, I think it's better to suspend your own judgement
Jean-Michel, I think we are still speaking at cross purposes here. I am being open in my judgement and have no views on her capabilities. While our own contexts are of value, everyone commenting here could be said to let their own life experience colour their reactions.
To her original claim, I'm sympathetic. But from her subsequent responses to people's posts, I can't help but feel there is more at play here. Surely it would be remiss of anyone reading this to only be attentive to the comments she makes which support her position and overlook the ones which cast doubt?
For instance, I offered a pretty innocuous and harmless judgement in one of my own replies to her. It was the kind of judgement I would be 100% open to receiving from any employee in my organisation, whether senior or junior, and would deem it entirely appropriate to receive comments far more harshly worded or abrasive (some people are busy and have to deliver very direct messages, some come from cultural contexts where its entirely normal, and so on).
Desire's own reaction was to declare it a violation of the code of conduct. Now she is of course free to do so. But it strikes me that if that is the approach being taken to what may be constructive advice (advice she asked for), and if that attitude was also replicated in her workplace, then I am not at all surprised she is clashing with her colleagues and that they do not consider her mature enough to be considered anything other than "junior".
In many ways, it is great that she is raising her concern here. She gets to have a full and frank discussion, outside of the workplace, and see that people may perceive her in varied ways. And that there isn't necessarily any malice or ill-feeling in their viewpoints, even if they make critical comments. This can be a positive learning experience and may even resolve the issues she is having in her workplace if taken on board. This is in fact the kind of maturity that is necessary to become "mid-level" or "senior" in any role and as others have said (and which I think she would agree with), it is not simply about the years spent in a role that defines your level.
Seniority and management can be hell. It asks tough decisions of people and burdens you with substantial responsibilities. Progression in a workplace is largely about taking on increasing degrees of management responsibility. It absolutely requires you to be able to take on criticism without flinching. To be critical of your own performance. To be open to viewpoints you may not wish to hear. And it requires you to be able to let others take credit, even if you think you are doing all the work.
I'm not going to answer anything but just one thing:
You were being supportive to someone who was openly toxic against me, and that's actually a violation of CoC.
Good day, sir.
That's a shame Desire. I think there is a lot to be learnt from that person's post. They may have phrased their words less carefully than they could have. But I don't think being addressed in that manner (whether aimed at you, or me) is "toxic" or overly harsh. I've certainly had far harsher language used against myself before ;-) ....and learnt some good lessons from it.
They made a good point about something called "intermediate syndrome". It is something that affects all people in every area of life; the point where you go from feeling like you know very little, to feeling like you know a lot. Where suddenly you brim with confidence and may start expecting from others, or making demands, that actually you aren't ready to make. It's at that point that some of life's biggest mistakes creep in (I am familiar with it from the aviation industry, as it is the point in a pilot's development well where they are most dangerous to themselves and others - thinking they are better than they really are).
You're talking too much knowing anything about my life, skills, work and actually anything.
I'll give you an advice: don't talk to others as if you know everything, you don't.
Good day.
You're very right, I don't know everything (or much at all even). So I will leave the discussion there, as we're clearly not finding it constructive.
However, I think it would really be good for you to come back to this and review it all in a few weeks, months, or even years time. You may or may not feel different in future and there is a lot of varied (and therefore usual) information in everyone's posts here.
You're right, I will come back, remember how ignored I was, how some men on the internet claimed to know more about me than myself, and then I'll be thankful that I found a place where I get the credit and respect that I deserve.