Google Developer Expert | Auth0 Ambassador | Media Developer Expert at Cloudinary | Twilio Champ | Technical Coach at SpringBoard | Google Women Techmaker | Postman Supernova | AWS | Microsoft MVP
I have a CS degree, as I wrote in one of my articles, you don't need a CS degree to become a developer BUT unfortunately a lot of companies keep asking for a degree and/or don't pay you the same as if you have one (which I agree...sorta) I say sorta, because if you are very talented then you should get compensated for your talent, not because of your level of studies. If you are just average and don't have a CS degree then sure you should get paid less since the other person has more preparation. People go to school for 4.5 years average for a CS degree and most of the bootcamps are only for a few weeks and they teach you how to build apps, but the majority of them don't teach you how to think as a programmer.
Also, going to school is a great experience to learn from other people, do networking and get very good friends (you are stuck with this peeps for several years 🤗)
Another advantage of going to college is that some companies take your studies as experience. For example if a job opening is asking for 2 years experience using JAVA and you have been using JAVA through college then you technically qualify. Some companies specify 2 years of Professional experience tho and that's when college doesn't count as expirience.
Also, getting a college degree involves more than just CS classes. I had to take 9 math classes, chemistry, OR, and physics which helped my brain to develop in certain way and being more opened to other ways of thinking.
Lastly I have seen companies not carrying about your degree after 2-3 years of professional experience, but some companies when you reach certain level they care about it again. Like, yes you could be a software engineer without a degree, but a company may not make you a manager or a software architect because you don't have a degree.
Now, would I do get master's in CS. Hell no! Waste of money haha.
I think the only downside I see for people going college is having student loans. Thank god I didn't have any.
The "experience" of college can be gained from having any job, especially minimum wage jobs. I feel that working in food service or retail can far outrank college in every positive point you made.
Everything that you listed as a positive is not worth people going into debt for years, or life; and it's such a waste of learning potential.
If you want to learn how to think like a programmer, then do that. I did and I didn't have to get cozy with people I didn't want to associate with; I did that at Domino's and McDonald's.
I've been down in the dumps, Homeless, I've had close family murdered, including my mother. I've had wonderful things like my children being born and in my 30s meeting the woman of my dreams. Zero excuse to limit someone's potential. It can be done. Life is thinking like a programmer, no college needed.
The mentality that a college education is a net positive is consumer bias; apple products anyone? Use Linux.
Please use caution with your statements before you inadvertently put people into huge debt based on your recommendations.
Coding and understanding how to think like a programmer do not require college... Period.
As much as I agree there are other hardships people can go through - I wouldn't say simply having a minimum wage job compares to a college experience at all. Being in a position where you need to earn for yourself can outweigh it but still isn't the same. College provides an academic challenge where as a CS major you could find yourself working ALL the time for no pay at all - in fact you're the one paying the tuition dollars here. So it's very very different in terms of what you learn. In college you learn how you learn. By working a minimum wage job, you learn how to get by and survive. Two different skill sets!
I agree, and learning to survive is vastly more important. I have "been" to college, it was unflattering to say the least. So I quit.
College aims to teach life to the lowest common denominator. Life is the greatest teacher of all. Besides, the point here is software development and the necessity of a college degree.
We can intellectually disagree on the importance of a college degree, but my point is that a college degree nor a bootcamp is even remotely needed for a happy, rewarding career in software development. The passion in coding could use more entrepreneurs and startups, but that is another story.
I also love quantum physics, biology, math, etc. I don't need to have a degree to be good at any of them... I do it because I love learning. I think that is what is missing in college. The love of learning what you are passionate about.
Google Developer Expert | Auth0 Ambassador | Media Developer Expert at Cloudinary | Twilio Champ | Technical Coach at SpringBoard | Google Women Techmaker | Postman Supernova | AWS | Microsoft MVP
I don't agree that a minimum wage job replaces the experience of college, in fact most of the recruiters tell you to take away irrelevant experiences like being a waiter etc from your resume but they never tell you to take college off your resume, for you may not be worth going to college for some people it is. Like I said you don't need to have a degree to be a programmer, but if you don't may not get pay the same as other one that do, and that's a fact.
Sure, no college needed to think as a programmer but they do teach you that in school, yes you can learn it somewhere else. Most of the bootcamps don't teach you this. How many developers who take a bootcamp also take the time to take logic, classes, and other things that help you think as a programmer? I guarantee you the minimum people who graduated from a bootcamp do it.
If your excuse to avoid college is getting into debt, then bootcamps shouldn't even be an option. A good bootcamp can cost you easily several thousands of dollars ( not going to school because you don't want to get into debt is a valid excuse, I hate the education system here in the USA that is so expensive). Like I mentioned in one of the comments, I will take $200 and buy the best courses online crated by the best people in the industry (something the majority of the bootcamps don't offer, a class by top shit people in the industry)
Now, to give class in college you need a Phd and most of the professors have worked in the industry, have connections and have patents. Something that makes college education valuable too.
I'm not limiting someone's potential. I spoke facts, and not because I spoke facts means I'm telling people to get in debt. I mean good salaries sometimes come with a price and not just programming. Are you going to tell the doctor to not get a doctorate because is expensive or what?
If you read the post carefully I even mention that after 2-3 years of experience companies don't care about your degree, some companies start carrying again about you having a degree when you reach upper level positions, which is a fact too.
College doesn't have to be expensive. My 4 year accredited degree cost me almost nothing out of pocket. I received a full tuition scholarship. The local community college has a partnership program with universities for several degrees. I attended college, lived at home, worked part time, and took general education classes at the community college rate. I paid for books and lab fees.
I probably have less than $5k out of pocket in my degree. If I paid 100% out of pocket for my degree it would have cost less than 2 years at a traditional university living on campus.
I understand that not everyone has access to these programs -- but they are around. More and more of them are becoming fully virtual as well.
Eeehhh...i don't fully agree here. With you and OP.
This article can be true for your typical programmer/dev role.
But for someone who wants to go beyond the typical dev, and, say, program the trajectory of a satellite, a space shuttle, or an autonomous car - "working at Domino's and think like a programmer" and a bootcamp is not going to cut it.
There are definitely so many up sides to having a CS degree, or any degree, and I agree that you get more than just coding skills in those programs. I just love that there’s another option out there for people who can’t go to a university or don’t want to go again.
Interesting to think about pay differences for CS grads. Personally, as a non CS grad, I wouldn’t mind if a CS grad got paid more than me out of the gate, I would just think we would even out with time and years of experience eventually. But I would just hope an employer would give chances to people without CS degrees as well! Which we are definitely seeing in the workplace, one of the reasons bootcamps are so popular right now.
Google Developer Expert | Auth0 Ambassador | Media Developer Expert at Cloudinary | Twilio Champ | Technical Coach at SpringBoard | Google Women Techmaker | Postman Supernova | AWS | Microsoft MVP
Yes exactly, like I said a lot of companies don't care after 2-3 about your studies so you can definitely even out after a few years if you are talented. Also people experience pay differences just by going to different schools. E.g someone from Georgia Tech usually gets pay more than someone who went to a small college.
Also, in my personal point of view, if I had another degree and wanted to get into coding I wouldn't do a "on site bootcamp". I will just grab $200 and buy the best courses for what I want to learn e.g React, NodeJS, etc. By doing this I will save a lot of money, learn at my speed, have lifetime access to the courses I bought and the majority of the courses are created by the leaders in the industry.
May I receive an advice since I graduated and I am hardly getting employed and am doing side projects for people yet the people at the end they drop me 🙆 down and I can't show case something that is hosted to employers please? How can I get a job as a graduate?
That’s rough if you’re doing work for employers but not able to show it off for whatever reason... I guess you would have to get some side projects going to grow your personal portfolio? Good luck!
I have a CS degree, as I wrote in one of my articles, you don't need a CS degree to become a developer BUT unfortunately a lot of companies keep asking for a degree and/or don't pay you the same as if you have one (which I agree...sorta) I say sorta, because if you are very talented then you should get compensated for your talent, not because of your level of studies. If you are just average and don't have a CS degree then sure you should get paid less since the other person has more preparation. People go to school for 4.5 years average for a CS degree and most of the bootcamps are only for a few weeks and they teach you how to build apps, but the majority of them don't teach you how to think as a programmer.
Also, going to school is a great experience to learn from other people, do networking and get very good friends (you are stuck with this peeps for several years 🤗)
Another advantage of going to college is that some companies take your studies as experience. For example if a job opening is asking for 2 years experience using JAVA and you have been using JAVA through college then you technically qualify. Some companies specify 2 years of Professional experience tho and that's when college doesn't count as expirience.
Also, getting a college degree involves more than just CS classes. I had to take 9 math classes, chemistry, OR, and physics which helped my brain to develop in certain way and being more opened to other ways of thinking.
Lastly I have seen companies not carrying about your degree after 2-3 years of professional experience, but some companies when you reach certain level they care about it again. Like, yes you could be a software engineer without a degree, but a company may not make you a manager or a software architect because you don't have a degree.
Now, would I do get master's in CS. Hell no! Waste of money haha.
I think the only downside I see for people going college is having student loans. Thank god I didn't have any.
The "experience" of college can be gained from having any job, especially minimum wage jobs. I feel that working in food service or retail can far outrank college in every positive point you made.
Everything that you listed as a positive is not worth people going into debt for years, or life; and it's such a waste of learning potential.
If you want to learn how to think like a programmer, then do that. I did and I didn't have to get cozy with people I didn't want to associate with; I did that at Domino's and McDonald's.
I've been down in the dumps, Homeless, I've had close family murdered, including my mother. I've had wonderful things like my children being born and in my 30s meeting the woman of my dreams. Zero excuse to limit someone's potential. It can be done. Life is thinking like a programmer, no college needed.
The mentality that a college education is a net positive is consumer bias; apple products anyone? Use Linux.
Please use caution with your statements before you inadvertently put people into huge debt based on your recommendations.
Coding and understanding how to think like a programmer do not require college... Period.
As much as I agree there are other hardships people can go through - I wouldn't say simply having a minimum wage job compares to a college experience at all. Being in a position where you need to earn for yourself can outweigh it but still isn't the same. College provides an academic challenge where as a CS major you could find yourself working ALL the time for no pay at all - in fact you're the one paying the tuition dollars here. So it's very very different in terms of what you learn. In college you learn how you learn. By working a minimum wage job, you learn how to get by and survive. Two different skill sets!
I agree, and learning to survive is vastly more important. I have "been" to college, it was unflattering to say the least. So I quit.
College aims to teach life to the lowest common denominator. Life is the greatest teacher of all. Besides, the point here is software development and the necessity of a college degree.
We can intellectually disagree on the importance of a college degree, but my point is that a college degree nor a bootcamp is even remotely needed for a happy, rewarding career in software development. The passion in coding could use more entrepreneurs and startups, but that is another story.
I also love quantum physics, biology, math, etc. I don't need to have a degree to be good at any of them... I do it because I love learning. I think that is what is missing in college. The love of learning what you are passionate about.
Never stop exploring the world
I don't agree that a minimum wage job replaces the experience of college, in fact most of the recruiters tell you to take away irrelevant experiences like being a waiter etc from your resume but they never tell you to take college off your resume, for you may not be worth going to college for some people it is. Like I said you don't need to have a degree to be a programmer, but if you don't may not get pay the same as other one that do, and that's a fact.
Sure, no college needed to think as a programmer but they do teach you that in school, yes you can learn it somewhere else. Most of the bootcamps don't teach you this. How many developers who take a bootcamp also take the time to take logic, classes, and other things that help you think as a programmer? I guarantee you the minimum people who graduated from a bootcamp do it.
If your excuse to avoid college is getting into debt, then bootcamps shouldn't even be an option. A good bootcamp can cost you easily several thousands of dollars ( not going to school because you don't want to get into debt is a valid excuse, I hate the education system here in the USA that is so expensive). Like I mentioned in one of the comments, I will take $200 and buy the best courses online crated by the best people in the industry (something the majority of the bootcamps don't offer, a class by top shit people in the industry)
Now, to give class in college you need a Phd and most of the professors have worked in the industry, have connections and have patents. Something that makes college education valuable too.
I'm not limiting someone's potential. I spoke facts, and not because I spoke facts means I'm telling people to get in debt. I mean good salaries sometimes come with a price and not just programming. Are you going to tell the doctor to not get a doctorate because is expensive or what?
If you read the post carefully I even mention that after 2-3 years of experience companies don't care about your degree, some companies start carrying again about you having a degree when you reach upper level positions, which is a fact too.
College doesn't have to be expensive. My 4 year accredited degree cost me almost nothing out of pocket. I received a full tuition scholarship. The local community college has a partnership program with universities for several degrees. I attended college, lived at home, worked part time, and took general education classes at the community college rate. I paid for books and lab fees.
I probably have less than $5k out of pocket in my degree. If I paid 100% out of pocket for my degree it would have cost less than 2 years at a traditional university living on campus.
I understand that not everyone has access to these programs -- but they are around. More and more of them are becoming fully virtual as well.
Eeehhh...i don't fully agree here. With you and OP.
This article can be true for your typical programmer/dev role.
But for someone who wants to go beyond the typical dev, and, say, program the trajectory of a satellite, a space shuttle, or an autonomous car - "working at Domino's and think like a programmer" and a bootcamp is not going to cut it.
There are definitely so many up sides to having a CS degree, or any degree, and I agree that you get more than just coding skills in those programs. I just love that there’s another option out there for people who can’t go to a university or don’t want to go again.
Interesting to think about pay differences for CS grads. Personally, as a non CS grad, I wouldn’t mind if a CS grad got paid more than me out of the gate, I would just think we would even out with time and years of experience eventually. But I would just hope an employer would give chances to people without CS degrees as well! Which we are definitely seeing in the workplace, one of the reasons bootcamps are so popular right now.
Yes exactly, like I said a lot of companies don't care after 2-3 about your studies so you can definitely even out after a few years if you are talented. Also people experience pay differences just by going to different schools. E.g someone from Georgia Tech usually gets pay more than someone who went to a small college.
Also, in my personal point of view, if I had another degree and wanted to get into coding I wouldn't do a "on site bootcamp". I will just grab $200 and buy the best courses for what I want to learn e.g React, NodeJS, etc. By doing this I will save a lot of money, learn at my speed, have lifetime access to the courses I bought and the majority of the courses are created by the leaders in the industry.
May I receive an advice since I graduated and I am hardly getting employed and am doing side projects for people yet the people at the end they drop me 🙆 down and I can't show case something that is hosted to employers please? How can I get a job as a graduate?
That’s rough if you’re doing work for employers but not able to show it off for whatever reason... I guess you would have to get some side projects going to grow your personal portfolio? Good luck!
Will they help me to be considered for a job though? It will really be nice if they consider me😥🙀🙀🙀
Yes, write your own apps, build a mini-portfolio to showcase your skills and work.