Yes, but it's really about inclusivity. People at work do not need their gender to be a thing, at all, but our language has it built-in and removing ambiguity about how people prefer to be referred to is a respectful way to do so and get on with our jobs.
You may not be able to tell at a glance how someone would prefer to be called, even if for most people you can. Wouldn't you still want to just be able to get it right for everyone? It might not be a prescient social problem for your daily life, but I'm sure it's a relief for some people.
Furthermore, and this doesn't get discussed much, it's a practical way for everyone to avoid being misgendered on the internet. Saying one's pronouns is a normalization of gender fluidity, but it's got this added benefit.
If you read through Reddit, you'll see almost everyone referring to other people in the threads as "he", with occasional "they" or context-dependent "she". As we seek the right way to co-exist on the internet across cultures and with changing norms, simple wins like this go a long way.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
Well, there is a lot of international folk on Reddit. Most languages gender nouns. As a result and depending on the country, you can often see that come into effect on a level that is easily misinterpreted by native speakers. For example, "OP said he wants links" makes perfect sense for a German, regardless of what gender the original poster has as OP itself would carry a gender.
And on the other end of the spectrum: Being able to use a language well enables you to avoid gendered expressions all together.
However, I do get your point and I see how that would make many situations easier. But I simply have a different stance on it: It depends on where in the internet I am. Sometimes I want to have a username and share nothing - not even my gender. Anonymity is the core of the web, labels a threat to that notion.
Ben, the main reason I joined Dev.to was because it was obviously designed to be inclusive of people like myself. Just wanted to say thanks for your allyship in helping create this space.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
Thank you for your reply. Maybe I should clarify: I say "political" as I am specifically referring to people with traditional gender identity, not people who are commonly mislabeled and therefore decided to publicly reiterate their preferred pronouns.
This means that I am also not talking about people I might unintentionally misgender and would therefore seek clarity. Here, I am specifically referring to people who do this in support of people who might feel singled out if they were the only ones having the need to clarify how to refer to them. In this context, it is political, is it not? I mean, if I see a profile picture of a person clearly identifying as a woman with a clearly female first name, the addition (she/her) doesn't really provide any purpose unless it is outside of the realm of the expectation (e.g. Jane Doe (they/their) )
Wouldn't you still want to just be able to get it right for everyone?
Sure! And if people chose to state their preferred way of being addressed that way, I see no issue with that. Likewise I would respect it if people did not want to share it like that. The whole problem is usually contained to introductions / first meetings anyway, unless there is a discrimination problem, in which case none of these methods will help.
So yes, I agree: It boils down to inclusivity. The actual question is (and I hope people affected join this conversation), "does it make it easier for non binary individuals to state their preferred pronouns if everybody does it"? If so, why? And should this become mandatory or "highly suggested" by companies, will it still have that effect? See, ironically, as soon as identity politics reflect legally, any intention of the original idea are usually useless. In a world where it is mandatory to disclose your pronouns, you will not generate any feeling of inclusivity. It will be harder to tell where people are truly understanding and where people are following the law. As stated before, we see this effect with other forms of discrimination. For example, racists have adapted pretty well to legal requirements. I could tell you a story about how long it took me to find out that a particular employer I worked for was someone I do not want to make business with; but that would takes us too far off topic.
Anyway, I assume by saying
[...] and removing ambiguity about how people prefer to be referred to is a respectful way to do so and get on with our jobs
you suggest that if everybody simply included their pronouns it would normalize identity effectively? Let's assume you are right: what is the solution for regular encounters (e.g. at a coffee shop)? Wearing name tags or t-shirts with our pronouns?
See, we are developers: there must be a better solution. If you look at the Thai language, for instance, you find yourself having a grammatical difference depending on who speaks, not who you speak to. So the way you say "hello" carries your gender. This is obviously a way better approach and might be one of the causes gender is a way easier topic in that country in general.
I feel some of this is already well-addressed by some of the other responses you've received. I do not agree with your insistence that there's anything wrong here, and it's not political because it's not there to signal value. It's genuinely there to normalize the practice. I suppose it's disingenuous to say it's about showing support, the point is that inequality is built in to our institutions as fundamental as language and it takes active work to chip away at that for those on the short end of the stick. That's not me, I'm a cis white male, but I don't see this as even a little bit if a loss or a burden on my end, and even if I did it'd be worthwhile.
I don't feel the need to broadcast anything about myself or my gender when I enter a coffee shop, I don't have any sort of profile there. It doesn't really come up in an interaction either. It makes sense on a social media profile, as a point of information that makes up my profile, but I similarly do not include it with every comment and article.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
I feel like I am either unable to make my point or am not heard:
I don't see anything wrong with stating your pronouns in such a way. I even agree with the gist of what you are saying:
the point is that inequality is built in to our institutions as fundamental as language and it takes active work to chip away at that for those on the short end of the stick
I am just questioning whether or not this is a good approach as it is certainly not a universal solution. It does not address core issues and it does not solve for anything outside of online communication. BUT, maybe it helps. That's what I am here to find out.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
I disagree.
Yes, but it's really about inclusivity. People at work do not need their gender to be a thing, at all, but our language has it built-in and removing ambiguity about how people prefer to be referred to is a respectful way to do so and get on with our jobs.
You may not be able to tell at a glance how someone would prefer to be called, even if for most people you can. Wouldn't you still want to just be able to get it right for everyone? It might not be a prescient social problem for your daily life, but I'm sure it's a relief for some people.
Furthermore, and this doesn't get discussed much, it's a practical way for everyone to avoid being misgendered on the internet. Saying one's pronouns is a normalization of gender fluidity, but it's got this added benefit.
If you read through Reddit, you'll see almost everyone referring to other people in the threads as "he", with occasional "they" or context-dependent "she". As we seek the right way to co-exist on the internet across cultures and with changing norms, simple wins like this go a long way.
Well, there is a lot of international folk on Reddit. Most languages gender nouns. As a result and depending on the country, you can often see that come into effect on a level that is easily misinterpreted by native speakers. For example, "OP said he wants links" makes perfect sense for a German, regardless of what gender the original poster has as OP itself would carry a gender.
And on the other end of the spectrum: Being able to use a language well enables you to avoid gendered expressions all together.
However, I do get your point and I see how that would make many situations easier. But I simply have a different stance on it: It depends on where in the internet I am. Sometimes I want to have a username and share nothing - not even my gender. Anonymity is the core of the web, labels a threat to that notion.
It does make sense that it would avoid that issue but upon reading this a question popped into my head.
Why is that even an issue in the first place? Why does being misgendered on the internet matter?
Ben, the main reason I joined Dev.to was because it was obviously designed to be inclusive of people like myself. Just wanted to say thanks for your allyship in helping create this space.
In that case: would you mind giving your thoughts on this?
Thank you for your reply. Maybe I should clarify: I say "political" as I am specifically referring to people with traditional gender identity, not people who are commonly mislabeled and therefore decided to publicly reiterate their preferred pronouns.
This means that I am also not talking about people I might unintentionally misgender and would therefore seek clarity. Here, I am specifically referring to people who do this in support of people who might feel singled out if they were the only ones having the need to clarify how to refer to them. In this context, it is political, is it not? I mean, if I see a profile picture of a person clearly identifying as a woman with a clearly female first name, the addition (she/her) doesn't really provide any purpose unless it is outside of the realm of the expectation (e.g.
Jane Doe (they/their))Sure! And if people chose to state their preferred way of being addressed that way, I see no issue with that. Likewise I would respect it if people did not want to share it like that. The whole problem is usually contained to introductions / first meetings anyway, unless there is a discrimination problem, in which case none of these methods will help.
So yes, I agree: It boils down to inclusivity. The actual question is (and I hope people affected join this conversation), "does it make it easier for non binary individuals to state their preferred pronouns if everybody does it"? If so, why? And should this become mandatory or "highly suggested" by companies, will it still have that effect? See, ironically, as soon as identity politics reflect legally, any intention of the original idea are usually useless. In a world where it is mandatory to disclose your pronouns, you will not generate any feeling of inclusivity. It will be harder to tell where people are truly understanding and where people are following the law. As stated before, we see this effect with other forms of discrimination. For example, racists have adapted pretty well to legal requirements. I could tell you a story about how long it took me to find out that a particular employer I worked for was someone I do not want to make business with; but that would takes us too far off topic.
Anyway, I assume by saying
you suggest that if everybody simply included their pronouns it would normalize identity effectively? Let's assume you are right: what is the solution for regular encounters (e.g. at a coffee shop)? Wearing name tags or t-shirts with our pronouns?
See, we are developers: there must be a better solution. If you look at the Thai language, for instance, you find yourself having a grammatical difference depending on who speaks, not who you speak to. So the way you say "hello" carries your gender. This is obviously a way better approach and might be one of the causes gender is a way easier topic in that country in general.
I feel some of this is already well-addressed by some of the other responses you've received. I do not agree with your insistence that there's anything wrong here, and it's not political because it's not there to signal value. It's genuinely there to normalize the practice. I suppose it's disingenuous to say it's about showing support, the point is that inequality is built in to our institutions as fundamental as language and it takes active work to chip away at that for those on the short end of the stick. That's not me, I'm a cis white male, but I don't see this as even a little bit if a loss or a burden on my end, and even if I did it'd be worthwhile.
I don't feel the need to broadcast anything about myself or my gender when I enter a coffee shop, I don't have any sort of profile there. It doesn't really come up in an interaction either. It makes sense on a social media profile, as a point of information that makes up my profile, but I similarly do not include it with every comment and article.
I don't see many cons, and lots of pros.
I feel like I am either unable to make my point or am not heard:
I don't see anything wrong with stating your pronouns in such a way. I even agree with the gist of what you are saying:
I am just questioning whether or not this is a good approach as it is certainly not a universal solution. It does not address core issues and it does not solve for anything outside of online communication. BUT, maybe it helps. That's what I am here to find out.
You've got a bunch of folks telling you here that it does indeed.
Indeed. Lot's of feedback. Was hoping for some non binary perspective as well, though.