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Dear Future Employer,

cwraytech profile image Christopher Wray Updated on ・1 min read

I've stopped submitting to the evil job application process.

I will not be submitting job applications anymore along with the 5,000 other people.

If you want me to join your team, it must mean that I know you, and you know me. In that case, I'll be happy to meet with you and go through the 20-hour interview process.

My mother always said to never judge a book by its cover, and neither should you.

Who will ever know if my resume could ever stack against the people who will say anything to get the job? I'd rather not lie, and I'm always going to be me.

If you want to meet, and if you have a great team, then please reach out. I want to team up with you!

Otherwise, know, here is one less submission to your job you will have to deal with.

Sincerely,
Chris

Discussion (28)

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greggomatic profile image
Greg Thomas

I once was interviewed for a Senior Developer role where the interview took approximately 3 - 4 hours to run through. By the end of it, I could see the interviewer was struggling to come up with questions. I left exhausted and starving and knowing I wouldn't accept anything they offered.

If that was how someone new to the company was being treated, I could only imagine how the existing team was treated.

Having been on the receiving end of hundreds of interviews - companies promise great filtering tools, but they never line up and I find they always filter out the best people. So the best thing was the 10 -15 min screening interview over the phone to kick things off before we bring you in to meet with everyone.

It wasn't perfect, but I like to think it saved time on both sides.

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Christopher Wray Author

Hey Greg! Thanks so much for chiming in, and yes, why do these companies interview for 4 hours straight??? Or even 2? Like seriously, unless that is expected of the candidate to be in meetings all day, that really should not be the case.

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greggomatic profile image
Greg Thomas

I keep the interviews to 30 - 45 mins tops. If the conversation is exciting, I'll ask if we can extend for an hour.

You're always going to be hit and miss with you bring on, no one is perfect, but it comes down to what you are asking that will help in getting better at who you hire.

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

I think your way of doing it is great. How many interviews do you normally do before deciding on someone?

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greggomatic profile image
Greg Thomas

In the way we were doing the phone screen, it was always two. The rare time we did three but this was only if we were all on the fence and couldn't decide. Really it was a last resort, it's not fair to bring someone in for 3 interviews unless you are 90% about to hire them (IMHO). I've done many interviews (the 2nd one) where the person is fantastic and I say - "one second" - and run out and come back with other people for them to meet and ask questions - so that we don't have to go through the pain of rescheduling an interview again.

At the end of the day, the interviewer should know where you have worked (they have your resume and pick out what doesn't make sense), they should know what you have done (they can see your portfolio and URLs and should be checking it out) so really, the time you have together is to see how you would solve problems and work with the team.

It's not a memory test of what you can do without Google and everyone recites the same answers to those questions.

Get them to talk about problems/apps they have worked on, interject on why they made decisions and what they would change - that's the goods that you are after.

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

Wow, this is incredible information. Thank you. Also great to know about the memory test because I have a horrible memory! haha.

I have a todo list each day and it's the only way I'm able to be productive because I even forget what I have to do. lol.

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

I am super impressed you try to limit interviews to 2-3. That is awesome.

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190245 profile image
Dave

I understand your frustrations, believe me, I've been there, but removing yourself from the pool isn't going to help anyone.

Currently, I'm happy where I am, and have recently declined an approach from a recruiter - despite their opening salvo being £20k p.a. more than I'm currently paid. I declined to even have a chat with the recruiter because while I'm happy, it would have been a waste of everyone's time.

I'm also a manager. We don't pay anyone for interviewing. Do you pay a plumber to come look at your pipes, have a chat and drink some coffee? Or do you pay them for fixing your leak?

We do pay a little over market rates, bonuses, better pension than most, have a good tech stack, WFH, relocation costs (incl a few months rent if you moved to be in commutable range of the office) etc.

But if you're not sending your CV, I'll never hire you, because, to use your words, I don't know you.

Finally, best of luck with your career plans, just consider not cutting off your nose to spite your face. There's no harm in sending CVs, then "thanks but no thanks" once you know what to expect from the interview. I've done that before myself, and cut one interview call short when I knew I wasn't interested (as a candidate).

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Christopher Wray Author • Edited

I don’t think I will be completely cutting myself off... but I’m not going to send it without having already built connections at the company.

I know I’m not the best and I also know that if I try to just be the same as everyone else I can’t win. I’ve been applying to jobs on and off for the past 6 months. Tried to update the style and things on my resume constantly, and been interviewed only a handful of times.

From now on, I’m planning to simply dedicate myself to project work which pays our bills, and open source, as a way to market myself and become a better developer.

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190245 profile image
Dave

Since I'm a manager, and I'm hiring (and have recently re-written our job description etc)... and I'm responsible for reviewing incoming applications...

Feel free to use my LinkedIn (visible from my Dev profile) to get direct, private contact with me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds more like a confidence / current Covid related job market situation than anything else. We might not be in the same technical stack etc, and given (by the currencies) that you're in the US, I probably wouldn't be hiring you, unless you wanted to relocate to the UK...

But as one random human on the internet to another, please feel free to send me what you have & I'll give you an honest feedback & pointers etc. I'm also happy to ask friendly recruiters for their feedback (with your permission of course).

If it comes down to it, feel free to hit me up on Skype.

The only thing I can promise you though, is that I won't be paying you for your time ;) (but I also won't charge you for mine).

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author • Edited

Dave, you are awesome. Thank you so much! Yes I will definitely connect with you on LinkedIn.

About payment. that was kind of a throw in when I was writing it and I shouldn’t even have said that. Reading it again it sounded really conceited. I’m very thankful for your input.

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190245 profile image
Dave

Don't worry, my humour is often a little hit & miss.

Ultimately, to each their own... but after the 2020 that we've all had, if I can at all brighten even one person's day, feel free to spell out what you need etc (here, LinkedIn, Skype, carrier pigeon, all good).

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

Wow thank you Dave. The main thing for me is to be a part of a great team where I can grow as a software developer and feel like I’m contributing to building something good for the world. Other than that I don’t have a lot of expectations.

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Christopher Wray Author • Edited

Thank you so much for the advice. I will remove the part about paying me.(:

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gautham495 profile image
Gautham Vijayan

Chris I loved your story maan!!!

The only way you can secure a job easily is when the market is hot on a specific topic and you are a master at it.

Take for instance,React.js development and React Native and mobile app development is red hot in India right now and people are dming my linked in profile and asking if I am available for a full time job.

I am not flexing about myself here, but do as the market says reap the rewards.

Looking forward for your posts!!

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

Hey! Thank you for that encouragement!
I really have only recently realized that filling out applications is a terrible way to get a job... And yeah, I'm getting more messages nowadays, but I am holding out for the right opportunity if you know what I mean?

I think your advice of mastering a topic is great. I am doing my best, but I do think I could hone in some areas a lot better. Appreciate your comments!

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gautham495 profile image
Gautham Vijayan

Racisms is bad!
Master some mobile app dev stuff like react native. Companies will knock down your door to grab you!!
Cheers have a wonderful day!

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Christopher Wray Author • Edited

Thank you, Gautham. I totally agree.. (about the racism comment.). Thank you!

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Christopher Wray Author • Edited

Just putting it out there that I don’t want to be rude or to pick on one specific company. :-)

I am just kind of fed up with applying to jobs online and never hearing back or being rejected without any feedback.

Or, even worse, spending hours interviewing with a company but then being rejected because I say something slightly off in my nervousness.

I think the whole job application process needs to be re-thought.

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

I'm working on a product concept that I hope can solve the issues that I see as a candidate with the process.

If you stumble on this thread, and you are an investor, please reach out to chat with me about it.

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gautham495 profile image
Gautham Vijayan

Can you DM me please. I cannot see Chat option in your profile.

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716green profile image
Bob Bass • Edited

I just told a LinkedIn recruiter the exact same thing 2 days ago. My work is public, I have projects on GitHub, YouTube videos going over my projects, I'm a contestant in a start-up competition/accelerator, and my credentials are listed in a few places.

I told the recruiter that if I'm a good fit for a role, the employer can find me or at the very least- have someone from the team reach out directly.

I'd be a great addition to the right team, and probably a sub-par addition to the wrong one. I won't take a job that I'm not qualified for and interested in.

I'm reaching my breaking point because I get recruiters reaching out to hire me for software stacks that I've never worked with and that I'm not willing to learn. I'm a NodeJS guy with a history in .net but I get Java offers almost daily and even the occasional PHP. Not only do they flood my inbox but they don't take the time to confirm my software stack or even credentials.

As a software developer, I would build a scouting solution if I didn't have so many other projects in the works.

There is an epidemic of lazy recruiters right now and it's made LinkedIn almost unusable.

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Christopher Wray Author

Wow, that is too bad about getting slammed with recruiters. It has been somewhat similar to me as well, then I will do a phone convo with them and they will say "oh, they are looking for someone with 3 years of experience in React".... I'll be like dude, why did you contact me lol

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716green profile image
Bob Bass

I'm a Vue developer (for the most part) but I have dabbled in react and I could get comfortable enough to take a job with it in just about a week. Anything in the JavaScript ecosystem. Probably even angular although I expect angular would take a little bit longer than react because it's so much more opinionated.

But I think that most employers will understand that. I think that any employer that would only hire me as a 'Vue developer' would feel short sighted. BUT - I would never take a job as a PHP developer. I turned down a job recently as a developer on an ASP.net web app with bootstrap and jQuery (because it sounded like a really boring stack) - but the lead developer expressed that he wanted to redesign the website with a more modern technology eventually, I suggested that he turned it over to me and that I rebuild it with Blazor and he felt that it wasn't mature enough of a technology.

I've gotten a lot of job offers in .net but I haven't touched the .net ecosystem since I fall in love with node.

I'm not sure what it's like for most developers who are looking for a job at the moment but I get the feeling that any employer should be able to find enough information about me if they want to that they should know if I'm a good fit for the job before they even reach out. There's so much information available, even just on GitHub. The trend of HR people without development experience hiring developers is a really bad trend that does nothing but waste everyone's time all around.

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GregIven

I liken the job application framework as similar to advertising in general. Your resume being an advertisement, plaster it everywhere where people will pay scant attention to it and probably be annoyed by... until they hear they one keyword which will make their ears perk.

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cwraytech profile image
Christopher Wray Author

Thank you for sharing your advice!

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m3h0w profile image
Michał Gacka

The process is all backwards. We end up building products we don't care about in cultures that don't suit our personalities, because somehow it's normal that the employer should know everything about you while you don't get a chance to really understand what you're going to be doing for the next 2 years of your life before choosing to commit. We will spend tens of thousands of hours with the people we end up working with. How is it even conceivable to not get to know them first?

Not to mention spending hours or days on recruitment tasks before you know these crucial things.

Plus the interviews that check for how well you prepared for the interview instead of how well you'll do at the job and a ridiculous amount of effort one has to put into digging through piles of position descriptions to find a potentially fitting one because all of them sounds the same and give little to no indication of what to expect.

I think it's really funny to realize that the industry that specializes in building tools to solve problems hasn't come up with anything better yet.

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Christopher Wray Author

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I do think something better is out there… we just need to build it.

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