Really? My intend, even from the way you took it, is obviously to start a discussion about how we as a developer community can improve the hiring process.
I really believe you did, right from the start! I was addressing a single section in which you were expressing a message that mismatched the rest of your point. I tried hard to keep on the idea, and I apologize if I made it about anything else.
I re-read my posts, and I'm fairly sure I avoided saying anything about your ego, mate. That said...
I have no intend to "express how terrible and sensitive of a person I imagine you to be"
Um, right here:
So here we get to the point, don't we? This is not a class-war as I misinterpreted. This is about your ego.
...and here...
So, about that: Yes, why did you feel so triggered in the first place?
That's when it left ideas and went into characterizing me as being sensitive and egotistical, rather than me just addressing a topic I'm passionate about based on my actual experience.
And perhaps I do owe you a citation of my credentials: I've been doing hiring successfully for a small, diverse team for nearly a decade. My processes have been vetted by university career services departments, and proven by the actual results of hiring. Like I'd said, I don't know your experience, but your statement seemed to suggest that you didn't understand what a hiring manager's workload tended to be like. Armchair experts on this topic are a dime a dozen, and you'd made no mention in your post of doing this before (unless I missed it? Correct me here!). One of the core principles of public speaking is to cite your credibility up front; that applies here.
But again, I believe that one section did not adequately express your opinion on the topic, and I'm well aware it mismatched the rest of your post.
I've been on the flip side of this before, by the way. I once got schooled in how Java actually compiled by one of the engineers responsible. I wanted to be able to dismiss him as "arrogant", but the fact was, he had knowledge I didn't. Between the two of us, we were able to figure out how to disambiguate some build vocabulary, which I later put into a post.
By the way,
I am not disliking people based on having a different opinion and the willingness to express them strongly. After all, I am not blind towards the fact that there is some irony in this being about my ego as well.
I can appreciate that you don't altogether dismiss it, especially as you haven't yet crossed the Code of Conduct line (even if that was a close shave one post ago, see above.) Things get heated. I wouldn't be surprised if I used less-than-ideal phrasing a few times myself, as much as I tried not to.
I think it would be of interest to many what you can share about misconceptions regarding hiring and job-searching.
I haven't written a lot about hiring in my DEV posts. Most of my work in this area is on a more individual basis as a mentor, although I've been involved in many conversations on DEV about good and bad hiring practice. I plan to someday write an article about it, but at this time, I've got bigger fish to fry.
My last point on the topic of responsibility of meaning: imagine a reader who is feeling put out because he was vetted for coding skills he claimed he had, and was found wanting because he couldn't code at all. He's oscillating between the idea that not being selected was on him, for not having the essential minimum skills before applying, and the idea that the hiring manager was just cruel and unreasonable. He happens across your post and reads that one section. How do you think he'd react? Would he thoughtfully consider how he can prepare for job applications, or would he just conclude that "any coding interview that expects me to verify my skills before the final interview is unreasonable!" Read your own post with a jaded eye, and you may see what I mean.
In any case, I digress.
I don't need to have the last word; in fact, your last post has only made me want to discuss different vetting methods with you! But I don't believe it's worth doing that under all that noise. I'll respond a second time, and we can focus on that instead. After all, it IS the bulk of your article's point.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
I don't need to have the last word; in fact, your last post has only made me want to discuss different vetting methods with you!
Glad you're having fun as well.
I will use the new thread you started for that (probably a little later as I have things to attend to). Just quickly some remarks/questions on language to end this thread:
This is not a class-war as I misinterpreted. This is about your ego.
Yes, sorry. I probably should have said "our egos" right there. The actual epiphany here was to realize we manoeuvred ourselves in something I would formulate differently in a bar (hence the beer reference). It was regarding a male trait where two can realize that all the evolution and intelligence we gained doesn't spare us from sometimes finding ourselves in what is often referenced as a comparison of certain extremities.
So, about that: Yes, why did you feel so triggered in the first place?
I am aware of the connotation the word "triggered" recently gained in society. And I think we loose a physically accurate word describing "cause and effect" if we just use it in that "new, negative" way. "A caused B" is simply not the same as "A triggered B". So yes, I meant that something I wrote is directly responsible for you reacting in a certain way. But beyond that, there is no (neither negative nor positive) connotation I wanted to convey. I will always "trigger" webhooks, won't I?
Connotation is weird, innit? It's the one thing that kills me every time. I'm extremely literal in verbal communication, a residual side-effect of a traumatic brain injury in 2008, so I will often completely miss the connotation of a word or phrase, since I'm selecting it purely for its denotative meaning.
For whatever reason, this doesn't happen quite the same way for me in written communication. But that struggle with connotation in verbal communication has given me empathy for differences in interpretation. I think "triggered" as you intended it certainly ties into this; I've been exposed to so many complainers unduly whining about the hiring process that hearing those same phrases in a different context is associated with the same ideas, ergo my (incorrect) assumption you were merely a disgruntled candidate who wound up on the wrong side of a coding challenge (paired with the lack of anything to indicate the opposite, ergo that whole "cite your credibility" thing.
I'm not sure our conversation was really all that "males in a bar" flavored, however. I've had similar conversations with people of all genders and backgrounds. The essential point is that we were, as you said, on opposite extreme positions. Unfortunately, in a public forum, backing down from a position you feel passionate about invites observers to conclude you have nothing valid to say; if we'd had this conversation in private, I'd have honestly just quit after your initial rebuttal. In the end, I think we both made our points, so even if we can't entirely agree, our cases are established well enough for the intelligent observer to draw a sensible conclusion for themselves.
But, yeah, "triggered" is an unfortunate victim of language evolution, and that means we cannot effectively use it in its original context in random conversation. So what do we use instead? Maybe "Yes, why did you feel so strongly to that point in the first place?" (I'm sure there are other alternatives, besides.)
At the risk of sounding overly P.C. (which I'm seldom accused of...if anything, diplomacy is often lost to me!), connotation is inescapable, and we have to factor it in. If you ever get the chance, I definitely recommend picking up any courses or books you can on intercultural communication! It's been incredibly helpful in my career, especially in writing and public speaking. I'm certain you would find a lot of enjoyment and practical insight from it; but then, every person breathing could benefit from communication studies.
Of course, on the note of knowing connotation and taking full responsibility for "misunderstandings" (I hate that term) of one's own writing, I wouldn't advise anything I wouldn't do. I will often go back and clarify my own articles, sometimes well after the fact, even when I have reason to believe my point was deliberately misinterpreted by an angry commentor. The fantastic upshot of that is that it reduces the mental load involved in reading my work. I sincerely believe that aspect of my writing is a major reason I got a book contract.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
That might be a generational issue as well. I noticed that the use of smilies and emojis help putting the right tone into written communication. But I seem to be too old to get the hang of it yet too young to not being expected to "read" it.
As for triggered: I feel like the final word on that isn't out yet. There is always a "point of no return" when certain words or expressions tip over and cannot be used anymore without being understood in a certain way. I am not declaring the fight for the term "triggered" as over, yet. I started to be used in a psychological realm to prevent exactly that: to carry blame. "I am triggered by..." does not mean "It is your fault that I feel...". It simply declared the emotional effect something had on a particular individual. And it was a suitable use. Then one side added the connotation if blame and the other side made fun of the use in general. And all of a sudden that makes it derogatory in all contexts? Let's hope that's a fluke.
As for communication in general: I actually do invest some time in the topic and agree everyone should. But as you noticed, not only is language a living, constantly changing beast, we also live in a world where most of the people we communicate with use English, but didn't grow up with it (me included). This causes many local differences in forms of expression, between-the-lines interpretations and tone. It's something I always try to take into account, and therefore cannot go with you regarding your standard of "writing so everyone understands what you mean". At the end of the day, you have to aim for a percentage. If 60% get what you mean, there is room for improvement. But even if 99% of the readers put things together how you intended them to be understood, you will still "fail" to get your point across towards some.
And the feedback always feels distorted. If your book (congrats, BTW) gets sold 1 00 000 times and only 1% feel misrepresented/misunderstood, you will hear from that 1%. You won't get feedback from the ones nodding it off, and you probably won't get much feedback from the ones who loved it. But that 1%. These 1000 individuals will way more likely get vocal.
As for communication in general: I actually do invest some time in the topic and agree everyone should. But as you noticed, not only is language a living, constantly changing beast, we also live in a world where most of the people we communicate with use English, but didn't grow up with it (me included).
Well, and that's just it. Communication emphasizes paralinguistics — aspects of communication beyond written/spoken language — so heavily, it really helps deobfuscate some of the weirder things about language, such as connotation. Intercultural communication, in particular, focuses heavily on differences in cultural and societal norms and expectations, where those come from, and how those influence communication.
It's something I always try to take into account, and therefore cannot go with you regarding your standard of "writing so everyone understands what you mean". At the end of the day, you have to aim for a percentage. If 60% get what you mean, there is room for improvement. But even if 99% of the readers put things together how you intended them to be understood, you will still "fail" to get your point across towards some.
Yes, you'll always lose someone, no doubt. The trouble comes in recognizing when we wrote something that's at a notable risk of being misunderstood. Wit, humor, and sarcasm are especially high risk in this regard, such that many authors will call out sections of satire outright. In other cases, you can "cushion the blow" to reduce the risk, especially if the context is missed.
(Thanks for the edit, by the way!)
If I were to take a shot at writing those two paragraphs we've been debating about, it would probably look something like the following. (You do NOT have to rewrite it; your edit is just peachy! This is just my demonstrating what I mean.)
After experiencing assessments ranging from 5 minute multiple choice quizzes to 2.5 hour coding interviews, it seems to me that the commitment expected from a candidate keeps growing and growing.
And we should think about that for a second:
How much value are you really getting out of piling on pre-interview expectations: a half an hour for a phone interview, 2.5 hours for a coding challenge, 1 hour for psychological online tests, ignoring the additional hour the candidate presumably put into writing a cover letter and learning about the position/company.
If most of that is doing little to effectively screen the candidate, isn't there an underlying impertinence in saying: before I risk investing one single hour for a face-2-face interview, I expect you to risk investing about 15% of a work week, most of which won't really tell me anything useful about you? And never mind the fact that it could potentially be the candidate who decides not to go forward after finally seeing the company from the inside. I mean, somebody must have understood the psychological principle of reciprocity.
See what I mean? Most of it is untouched, but a few words add clarity: your issue is the usefulness and return on those practices, not the practices in and of themselves. You're not dismissing phone interviews and coding challenges, but rather, you're challenging how they're done!
Anyhow, moving on...
And the feedback always feels distorted. ... But that 1%. These 1000 individuals will way more likely get vocal.
Definitely true. Usually you only get 2% of your audience giving feedback: the people who either love it so much they'd keep a copy under their pillow, or hate it and wish you'd go jump in a lake. ;) I'm exaggerating, obviously, but yes, there's a bias.
To that aim, however, one has to remember that for every person who WILL speak up about their dislike, there are probably a dozen or more who didn't say anything and just moved on. That's why I try to take feedback seriously (although not necessarily to heart): the one superfan speaks for a horde of moderate fans, the one harsh critic speaks for the horde of moderate critics.
There is a point where you have to ignore any particular critic, but only once you've seriously evaluated whether there's anything of merit in their criticism. Being a professional author really helps you develop a tough skin.
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I really believe you did, right from the start! I was addressing a single section in which you were expressing a message that mismatched the rest of your point. I tried hard to keep on the idea, and I apologize if I made it about anything else.
I re-read my posts, and I'm fairly sure I avoided saying anything about your ego, mate. That said...
Um, right here:
...and here...
That's when it left ideas and went into characterizing me as being sensitive and egotistical, rather than me just addressing a topic I'm passionate about based on my actual experience.
And perhaps I do owe you a citation of my credentials: I've been doing hiring successfully for a small, diverse team for nearly a decade. My processes have been vetted by university career services departments, and proven by the actual results of hiring. Like I'd said, I don't know your experience, but your statement seemed to suggest that you didn't understand what a hiring manager's workload tended to be like. Armchair experts on this topic are a dime a dozen, and you'd made no mention in your post of doing this before (unless I missed it? Correct me here!). One of the core principles of public speaking is to cite your credibility up front; that applies here.
But again, I believe that one section did not adequately express your opinion on the topic, and I'm well aware it mismatched the rest of your post.
I've been on the flip side of this before, by the way. I once got schooled in how Java actually compiled by one of the engineers responsible. I wanted to be able to dismiss him as "arrogant", but the fact was, he had knowledge I didn't. Between the two of us, we were able to figure out how to disambiguate some build vocabulary, which I later put into a post.
By the way,
I can appreciate that you don't altogether dismiss it, especially as you haven't yet crossed the Code of Conduct line (even if that was a close shave one post ago, see above.) Things get heated. I wouldn't be surprised if I used less-than-ideal phrasing a few times myself, as much as I tried not to.
I haven't written a lot about hiring in my DEV posts. Most of my work in this area is on a more individual basis as a mentor, although I've been involved in many conversations on DEV about good and bad hiring practice. I plan to someday write an article about it, but at this time, I've got bigger fish to fry.
My last point on the topic of responsibility of meaning: imagine a reader who is feeling put out because he was vetted for coding skills he claimed he had, and was found wanting because he couldn't code at all. He's oscillating between the idea that not being selected was on him, for not having the essential minimum skills before applying, and the idea that the hiring manager was just cruel and unreasonable. He happens across your post and reads that one section. How do you think he'd react? Would he thoughtfully consider how he can prepare for job applications, or would he just conclude that "any coding interview that expects me to verify my skills before the final interview is unreasonable!" Read your own post with a jaded eye, and you may see what I mean.
In any case, I digress.
I don't need to have the last word; in fact, your last post has only made me want to discuss different vetting methods with you! But I don't believe it's worth doing that under all that noise. I'll respond a second time, and we can focus on that instead. After all, it IS the bulk of your article's point.
Glad you're having fun as well.
I will use the new thread you started for that (probably a little later as I have things to attend to). Just quickly some remarks/questions on language to end this thread:
Yes, sorry. I probably should have said "our egos" right there. The actual epiphany here was to realize we manoeuvred ourselves in something I would formulate differently in a bar (hence the beer reference). It was regarding a male trait where two can realize that all the evolution and intelligence we gained doesn't spare us from sometimes finding ourselves in what is often referenced as a comparison of certain extremities.
I am aware of the connotation the word "triggered" recently gained in society. And I think we loose a physically accurate word describing "cause and effect" if we just use it in that "new, negative" way. "A caused B" is simply not the same as "A triggered B". So yes, I meant that something I wrote is directly responsible for you reacting in a certain way. But beyond that, there is no (neither negative nor positive) connotation I wanted to convey. I will always "trigger" webhooks, won't I?
Connotation is weird, innit? It's the one thing that kills me every time. I'm extremely literal in verbal communication, a residual side-effect of a traumatic brain injury in 2008, so I will often completely miss the connotation of a word or phrase, since I'm selecting it purely for its denotative meaning.
For whatever reason, this doesn't happen quite the same way for me in written communication. But that struggle with connotation in verbal communication has given me empathy for differences in interpretation. I think "triggered" as you intended it certainly ties into this; I've been exposed to so many complainers unduly whining about the hiring process that hearing those same phrases in a different context is associated with the same ideas, ergo my (incorrect) assumption you were merely a disgruntled candidate who wound up on the wrong side of a coding challenge (paired with the lack of anything to indicate the opposite, ergo that whole "cite your credibility" thing.
I'm not sure our conversation was really all that "males in a bar" flavored, however. I've had similar conversations with people of all genders and backgrounds. The essential point is that we were, as you said, on opposite extreme positions. Unfortunately, in a public forum, backing down from a position you feel passionate about invites observers to conclude you have nothing valid to say; if we'd had this conversation in private, I'd have honestly just quit after your initial rebuttal. In the end, I think we both made our points, so even if we can't entirely agree, our cases are established well enough for the intelligent observer to draw a sensible conclusion for themselves.
But, yeah, "triggered" is an unfortunate victim of language evolution, and that means we cannot effectively use it in its original context in random conversation. So what do we use instead? Maybe "Yes, why did you feel so strongly to that point in the first place?" (I'm sure there are other alternatives, besides.)
At the risk of sounding overly P.C. (which I'm seldom accused of...if anything, diplomacy is often lost to me!), connotation is inescapable, and we have to factor it in. If you ever get the chance, I definitely recommend picking up any courses or books you can on intercultural communication! It's been incredibly helpful in my career, especially in writing and public speaking. I'm certain you would find a lot of enjoyment and practical insight from it; but then, every person breathing could benefit from communication studies.
Of course, on the note of knowing connotation and taking full responsibility for "misunderstandings" (I hate that term) of one's own writing, I wouldn't advise anything I wouldn't do. I will often go back and clarify my own articles, sometimes well after the fact, even when I have reason to believe my point was deliberately misinterpreted by an angry commentor. The fantastic upshot of that is that it reduces the mental load involved in reading my work. I sincerely believe that aspect of my writing is a major reason I got a book contract.
That might be a generational issue as well. I noticed that the use of smilies and emojis help putting the right tone into written communication. But I seem to be too old to get the hang of it yet too young to not being expected to "read" it.
As for triggered: I feel like the final word on that isn't out yet. There is always a "point of no return" when certain words or expressions tip over and cannot be used anymore without being understood in a certain way. I am not declaring the fight for the term "triggered" as over, yet. I started to be used in a psychological realm to prevent exactly that: to carry blame. "I am triggered by..." does not mean "It is your fault that I feel...". It simply declared the emotional effect something had on a particular individual. And it was a suitable use. Then one side added the connotation if blame and the other side made fun of the use in general. And all of a sudden that makes it derogatory in all contexts? Let's hope that's a fluke.
As for communication in general: I actually do invest some time in the topic and agree everyone should. But as you noticed, not only is language a living, constantly changing beast, we also live in a world where most of the people we communicate with use English, but didn't grow up with it (me included). This causes many local differences in forms of expression, between-the-lines interpretations and tone. It's something I always try to take into account, and therefore cannot go with you regarding your standard of "writing so everyone understands what you mean". At the end of the day, you have to aim for a percentage. If 60% get what you mean, there is room for improvement. But even if 99% of the readers put things together how you intended them to be understood, you will still "fail" to get your point across towards some.
And the feedback always feels distorted. If your book (congrats, BTW) gets sold 1 00 000 times and only 1% feel misrepresented/misunderstood, you will hear from that 1%. You won't get feedback from the ones nodding it off, and you probably won't get much feedback from the ones who loved it. But that 1%. These 1000 individuals will way more likely get vocal.
Well, and that's just it. Communication emphasizes paralinguistics — aspects of communication beyond written/spoken language — so heavily, it really helps deobfuscate some of the weirder things about language, such as connotation. Intercultural communication, in particular, focuses heavily on differences in cultural and societal norms and expectations, where those come from, and how those influence communication.
Yes, you'll always lose someone, no doubt. The trouble comes in recognizing when we wrote something that's at a notable risk of being misunderstood. Wit, humor, and sarcasm are especially high risk in this regard, such that many authors will call out sections of satire outright. In other cases, you can "cushion the blow" to reduce the risk, especially if the context is missed.
(Thanks for the edit, by the way!)
If I were to take a shot at writing those two paragraphs we've been debating about, it would probably look something like the following. (You do NOT have to rewrite it; your edit is just peachy! This is just my demonstrating what I mean.)
See what I mean? Most of it is untouched, but a few words add clarity: your issue is the usefulness and return on those practices, not the practices in and of themselves. You're not dismissing phone interviews and coding challenges, but rather, you're challenging how they're done!
Anyhow, moving on...
Definitely true. Usually you only get 2% of your audience giving feedback: the people who either love it so much they'd keep a copy under their pillow, or hate it and wish you'd go jump in a lake. ;) I'm exaggerating, obviously, but yes, there's a bias.
To that aim, however, one has to remember that for every person who WILL speak up about their dislike, there are probably a dozen or more who didn't say anything and just moved on. That's why I try to take feedback seriously (although not necessarily to heart): the one superfan speaks for a horde of moderate fans, the one harsh critic speaks for the horde of moderate critics.
There is a point where you have to ignore any particular critic, but only once you've seriously evaluated whether there's anything of merit in their criticism. Being a professional author really helps you develop a tough skin.