Look, I've taught in higher ed in the English Dept., and I can say for sure that I knew more about coding after 6 months in a bootcamp than most of my students did after 3.5yrs of a comp sci degree. Yes, they were probably better at algorithms, but I'm not using that skill in day to day work.
Go search for junior dev jobs. They are not there. Not nearly at the same rate as mid to upper level devs. So it isn't about bootcamp or CS degrees. It's about no one wanting to hire jrs.
University is not only about general knowledge. It's much easier to judge persons commitment to the profession, when they spend 4+ years in the university, rather that 3-6 months in bootcamp.
All this hype with bootcamps (mostly fueled by their own commercials) brings a lot of people to IT with unreal expectations about the possibilities and the actual profession. Also there is the question of motivation - for most it's money and it will only get you so far.
For now IT is an easy choice. It's a good choice, but some people would much happier and successful somewhere else. This is coming from my personal experience - bootcamper, career-changer.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions. My experience both as an instructor in higher ed and as a bootcamp grad, and as a person who is involved in a lot of communities of people with a variety of backgrounds has given me a very different understanding. I don't necessarily think that happiness in a job is a good indicator either. Some people want stability or money. I like the problem solving aspect and it does make me happy. But not everyone is seeking happiness through work.
I have 20 years of experience in this industry. Give me the benefit of the doubt for a moment please. Suspend your skepticism and try to see the Big picture.
I know for sure there's a difference between the average junior licensee and the average bootcamper. And to make things clear, I'm not talking about you bekha. You might be the exception, i juste can't know and i will never juge your abilities here on a blogpost.
The fact is, a university diploma will get you a job in about 3 month in IT and about a year for bootcamp profiles that did not gave up searching.
I Hope that this reallity is told in bootcamps before the students start the training and paying for it.
Juste to give you an insight. I work with about 25 developpers, and 8 of them where hired as fresh juniors at one time here. One is a bootcamper.
That's 3 years the bootcamper is working in this team. I mentor him. He's still trying to catchup, and as much as i like him, because he has some other skills, i see the difference in his ability to be autonomous and to abstract things. He still needs a lot of my attention. In comparison the master Junior we just hired is already helping him understand things and i don't need to mentor him has much.
Is it worth for a recruiters to hire juniors. Yes. You Can make him learn and understand your business
and processes better than someone with prior experience.
But like you said, it takes time and dedication to mentor a junior. So in practice, i can only mentor one at a time.
In All my time in software industry, i always worked at places where we mentored juniors. I don't see why it would have suddently changed. And around me, my friends in IT have the same experience with bootcamp profiles that we shared.
Agree with this, but for me the point of having a diploma is only useful to get first job, as you said Its much easier to get a job in 3 months with a university diploma.
As an example I dont have a university diploma, I did a bootcamp, but in order to be able to get offers after my first internship I had to do a lot of side projects, and now after 2years I get a job outside of my country. Every interview that I had never asked for what I studied. What matters after your first job Its what you do during your career
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Look, I've taught in higher ed in the English Dept., and I can say for sure that I knew more about coding after 6 months in a bootcamp than most of my students did after 3.5yrs of a comp sci degree. Yes, they were probably better at algorithms, but I'm not using that skill in day to day work.
Go search for junior dev jobs. They are not there. Not nearly at the same rate as mid to upper level devs. So it isn't about bootcamp or CS degrees. It's about no one wanting to hire jrs.
University is not only about general knowledge. It's much easier to judge persons commitment to the profession, when they spend 4+ years in the university, rather that 3-6 months in bootcamp.
All this hype with bootcamps (mostly fueled by their own commercials) brings a lot of people to IT with unreal expectations about the possibilities and the actual profession. Also there is the question of motivation - for most it's money and it will only get you so far.
For now IT is an easy choice. It's a good choice, but some people would much happier and successful somewhere else. This is coming from my personal experience - bootcamper, career-changer.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions. My experience both as an instructor in higher ed and as a bootcamp grad, and as a person who is involved in a lot of communities of people with a variety of backgrounds has given me a very different understanding. I don't necessarily think that happiness in a job is a good indicator either. Some people want stability or money. I like the problem solving aspect and it does make me happy. But not everyone is seeking happiness through work.
Bekha,
I have 20 years of experience in this industry. Give me the benefit of the doubt for a moment please. Suspend your skepticism and try to see the Big picture.
I know for sure there's a difference between the average junior licensee and the average bootcamper. And to make things clear, I'm not talking about you bekha. You might be the exception, i juste can't know and i will never juge your abilities here on a blogpost.
The fact is, a university diploma will get you a job in about 3 month in IT and about a year for bootcamp profiles that did not gave up searching.
I Hope that this reallity is told in bootcamps before the students start the training and paying for it.
Juste to give you an insight. I work with about 25 developpers, and 8 of them where hired as fresh juniors at one time here. One is a bootcamper.
That's 3 years the bootcamper is working in this team. I mentor him. He's still trying to catchup, and as much as i like him, because he has some other skills, i see the difference in his ability to be autonomous and to abstract things. He still needs a lot of my attention. In comparison the master Junior we just hired is already helping him understand things and i don't need to mentor him has much.
Is it worth for a recruiters to hire juniors. Yes. You Can make him learn and understand your business
and processes better than someone with prior experience.
But like you said, it takes time and dedication to mentor a junior. So in practice, i can only mentor one at a time.
In All my time in software industry, i always worked at places where we mentored juniors. I don't see why it would have suddently changed. And around me, my friends in IT have the same experience with bootcamp profiles that we shared.
Agree with this, but for me the point of having a diploma is only useful to get first job, as you said Its much easier to get a job in 3 months with a university diploma.
As an example I dont have a university diploma, I did a bootcamp, but in order to be able to get offers after my first internship I had to do a lot of side projects, and now after 2years I get a job outside of my country. Every interview that I had never asked for what I studied. What matters after your first job Its what you do during your career