It's not an irrelevant issue to development. Development is about more than "technical" things. It's about people. Udemy is used by a lot of people in the tech community. We need to take care of our community and make sure that everyone feels welcome. This post is about pointing out safety concerns for women in our community.
And no one makes you read every single post on this site. You have the freedom to read and follow whoever you want.
@rnctr While I think I understand your argument, I feel that it is not mature enough. As programmer we use tools to answer problem and needs of society, companies, clients or even for the sole sake of joy. That means that a lot is directly conditioned by the environment we are working in. Udemy is a platform which propose a lot of courses, mainly aiming at IT people. Which means that a lot of person you may work with in the future, currently or in the past may have used or will use or may using it. As such the kind of course you can find on it will have an impact. As such they have a responsibility to be careful of their content. Ashlee just point out some course that need to be carefully review in accordance to the responsibility they hold. I agree that creating something new is a great critic of what already exist. But I believe that I nor Ashlee and neither you have the power to replace Udemy, while it is possible to motivate the community to pressure a little udemy to make some house keeping.
Just to the nail a little further, you spoke about noise and signal. Our job (and even more yours I believe, since you are a webdev) is surrounded by a lot of noise. Being able to bear it, understand it and grasp how it affects our creations is part of the job.
It's only my point of view and I may be wrong. I will be more than happy to revise any of those points with any compelling pieces that you could produce.
Thanks for reading.
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Again I'm not even talking about the issue raised in this article. I happen to agree that the content in question is trash, obviously. That isn't my point at all. My point is that this is a misnomer. It is a systemic problem with there being flawed people on the internet (we all are if you haven't noticed). It isn't Udemy specific. What about YouTube? Facebook? 4chan? The Dark Web? Sites devoted to misogyny? Udemy is comparatively a children's toy compared to those things that influence new developers. That's why I don't see the value in this. It is a bigger issue with the world that isn't isolated to one culture or society. It is a fundamental bug in the human code.
I've been doing this a long time. I've been in software for 20 years. I've seen it all, I've heard it all, and this doesn't help much. It may seem like getting one platform to change their tune -- if that is even possible -- will make things better. In the grand scheme, it doesn't really matter much. The only thing that does is you being the best you and influencing those around you in your daily work and being a point of light yourself. That is where the real impact is. When people who wondered about this issue encounter you or me, they will understand the best practice here, i.e. not being terrible. Bad apples always exist somewhere and you won't defeat them en masse. New ones are born every day. It is a losing battle. Thus my comment about signal to noise.
Maybe I have a different perspective, but this is my experience. It may not be yours. That's totally fine of course. I don't usually take stuff at face value too much, because I have learned that there is always something deeper going on that people haven't probed yet. If I'm alone in this view, that's fine. I'm used to it. I just thought you all would be a bit more accepting of a differing viewpoint, even though it seems to be in opposition to your own. I don't think so.
In any case, I don't agree that Udemy having this kind of terrible content says anything about the quality of their IT and programming content. One thing does not mean the other (as some have mentioned in this thread). They do have some really good courses (I might even say some of the best in certain areas) that SHOULD be taken by new and seasoned devs alike in my opinion, if you have interest in that subject. I've learned a lot from the cream of the crop there, and I don't think it is worth ignoring that fact. As I said, all the other platforms I use are the same way. If we spend all our time arguing over these more political issues, I think it pollutes our development mental namespace, so to speak. Again, just my perspective. Feel free to disregard.
In any case, I don't agree that Udemy having this kind of terrible content says anything about the quality of their IT and programming content.
I don't see where anyone said it affects other content. I said that it threatens the safety of their users, who are largely a part of the tech community.
If I'm alone in this view, that's fine. I'm used to it. I just thought you all would be a bit more accepting of a differing viewpoint, even though it seems to be in opposition to your own. I don't think so.
No one is attacking you here. You said this community should only have posts about tech. People have corrected you. That's it.
If we spend all our time arguing over these more political issues, I think it pollutes our development mental namespace, so to speak.
I don't know how long you've been on Twitter, since you blocked me and I can't actually see your profile, but there are unavoidable issues in the tech community for anyone who's not a white man. In the last month we have lost the engagement of some very valuable members of the community because of the racist systems that exist in the world.
Telling people they can't talk about the very things that gatekeep them from this community is absurd.
Please stop commenting on my post. If you don't like what I wrote, no one is making you read it or come back to this discussion. You are choosing to be here.
Ashlee really said it best in her response. I'll just add that as a white man, I've likely had a similar experience where this misogynistic culture doesn't affect me and therefore I could just dismiss it.
But I don't. I think a better option is listening with empathy, showing support, and believing others' lived experiences and concerns seriously without a) dismissing them below my own or b) making my own experiences the focus when at the time it should be on theirs.
So I'd recommend doing that. Until then, I'll take your advice and feel free to disregard your comments here.
Last comment I promise. Everyone should be allowed to be a part of the conversation. I was trying to be a part of it. I'm sorry you've lost people in the community, I don't know about what happened. I don't want anyone left out, especially because of who or what they are. I'm sorry that I upset everyone, that wasn't my intent. Goodbye.
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We're a place where coders share, stay up-to-date and grow their careers.
It's not an irrelevant issue to development. Development is about more than "technical" things. It's about people. Udemy is used by a lot of people in the tech community. We need to take care of our community and make sure that everyone feels welcome. This post is about pointing out safety concerns for women in our community.
And no one makes you read every single post on this site. You have the freedom to read and follow whoever you want.
@rnctr While I think I understand your argument, I feel that it is not mature enough. As programmer we use tools to answer problem and needs of society, companies, clients or even for the sole sake of joy. That means that a lot is directly conditioned by the environment we are working in. Udemy is a platform which propose a lot of courses, mainly aiming at IT people. Which means that a lot of person you may work with in the future, currently or in the past may have used or will use or may using it. As such the kind of course you can find on it will have an impact. As such they have a responsibility to be careful of their content. Ashlee just point out some course that need to be carefully review in accordance to the responsibility they hold. I agree that creating something new is a great critic of what already exist. But I believe that I nor Ashlee and neither you have the power to replace Udemy, while it is possible to motivate the community to pressure a little udemy to make some house keeping.
Just to the nail a little further, you spoke about noise and signal. Our job (and even more yours I believe, since you are a webdev) is surrounded by a lot of noise. Being able to bear it, understand it and grasp how it affects our creations is part of the job.
It's only my point of view and I may be wrong. I will be more than happy to revise any of those points with any compelling pieces that you could produce.
Thanks for reading.
Again I'm not even talking about the issue raised in this article. I happen to agree that the content in question is trash, obviously. That isn't my point at all. My point is that this is a misnomer. It is a systemic problem with there being flawed people on the internet (we all are if you haven't noticed). It isn't Udemy specific. What about YouTube? Facebook? 4chan? The Dark Web? Sites devoted to misogyny? Udemy is comparatively a children's toy compared to those things that influence new developers. That's why I don't see the value in this. It is a bigger issue with the world that isn't isolated to one culture or society. It is a fundamental bug in the human code.
I've been doing this a long time. I've been in software for 20 years. I've seen it all, I've heard it all, and this doesn't help much. It may seem like getting one platform to change their tune -- if that is even possible -- will make things better. In the grand scheme, it doesn't really matter much. The only thing that does is you being the best you and influencing those around you in your daily work and being a point of light yourself. That is where the real impact is. When people who wondered about this issue encounter you or me, they will understand the best practice here, i.e. not being terrible. Bad apples always exist somewhere and you won't defeat them en masse. New ones are born every day. It is a losing battle. Thus my comment about signal to noise.
Maybe I have a different perspective, but this is my experience. It may not be yours. That's totally fine of course. I don't usually take stuff at face value too much, because I have learned that there is always something deeper going on that people haven't probed yet. If I'm alone in this view, that's fine. I'm used to it. I just thought you all would be a bit more accepting of a differing viewpoint, even though it seems to be in opposition to your own. I don't think so.
In any case, I don't agree that Udemy having this kind of terrible content says anything about the quality of their IT and programming content. One thing does not mean the other (as some have mentioned in this thread). They do have some really good courses (I might even say some of the best in certain areas) that SHOULD be taken by new and seasoned devs alike in my opinion, if you have interest in that subject. I've learned a lot from the cream of the crop there, and I don't think it is worth ignoring that fact. As I said, all the other platforms I use are the same way. If we spend all our time arguing over these more political issues, I think it pollutes our development mental namespace, so to speak. Again, just my perspective. Feel free to disregard.
I don't see where anyone said it affects other content. I said that it threatens the safety of their users, who are largely a part of the tech community.
No one is attacking you here. You said this community should only have posts about tech. People have corrected you. That's it.
I don't know how long you've been on Twitter, since you blocked me and I can't actually see your profile, but there are unavoidable issues in the tech community for anyone who's not a white man. In the last month we have lost the engagement of some very valuable members of the community because of the racist systems that exist in the world.
Telling people they can't talk about the very things that gatekeep them from this community is absurd.
Please stop commenting on my post. If you don't like what I wrote, no one is making you read it or come back to this discussion. You are choosing to be here.
Ashlee really said it best in her response. I'll just add that as a white man, I've likely had a similar experience where this misogynistic culture doesn't affect me and therefore I could just dismiss it.
But I don't. I think a better option is listening with empathy, showing support, and believing others' lived experiences and concerns seriously without a) dismissing them below my own or b) making my own experiences the focus when at the time it should be on theirs.
So I'd recommend doing that. Until then, I'll take your advice and feel free to disregard your comments here.
Last comment I promise. Everyone should be allowed to be a part of the conversation. I was trying to be a part of it. I'm sorry you've lost people in the community, I don't know about what happened. I don't want anyone left out, especially because of who or what they are. I'm sorry that I upset everyone, that wasn't my intent. Goodbye.